Patagonian Mystery (to me)

[GaleriaGila]

My first avian vet told me that not long ago, Patagonians were classified as mini-macaws...

Makes sense to me: the largest mini is, I believe, the Severe. It's about the same length and size as a Patagonian. Patagonians surely LOOK a lot like macaws...

But they wound up as conures. WHICH is perfectly COOLIO!!!

Just curious... any avian biologists/scholars here who can shed light on bird classifications in general or specific? How's it decided?

I know that plants are classified based on flower anatomy and such.
What about birds???

 

[wrench13]

U mmm , yes I AM an avian bioligist, and we have reclassified patigonian parrots as patio-furniture. Name is Patagonia badus boyus.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Well, at last: a definitive, scholarly answer...

'Patagonia badus boyus' it is!!!!!!

Thank you, Professor!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Chase]

After a litter research, I'll make a leap here. Looking up their complete scientific name, they belong to the same subfamily as macaws. Like I said, I'm just making a leap, maybe that's where your vet got that they're classified as mini macaws?

 

[GaleriaGila]

Interrrrrrrestinnng, Chase....
Well, they WERE macaws, but at present...

They're conures.
“They should be kept in a cage the size of what you would keep a severe macaw, a yellow-collared macaw or a smaller Amazon parrot in. They are similar in behavior and personality, as well. They’re more like a mini-macaw than anything else,” said John Del Rio, a California-based conure breeder.
The Patagonian Conure

 

[MonicaMc]

The Golden Conures have also been called macaws.


Here's one difference between macaws and conures. Macaws have a facial patch. Conures only have 'eye-rings'.


There have been hybrids between the two "species", too. Of the ones I can think of...

Sun conure x Hahns
Jenday x Hahns
Blue crown x Hahns
Nanday x Hahns
Mitred x Noble (have not seen a picture of)
Nanday x Illigers




And one we aren't even sure what it is.... but leading guess is...

Patagonian x Blue and Gold

But he could just as likely be....

Patagonian x Blue Throat

 

[GaleriaGila]

Thank you, Monica!

That is very helpful, and just plain fascinating.

A Patagonian-Macaw hybrid... wow... I would love to see THAT!

 

[Rival_of_the_Rickeybird]

Wrench nailed it. Keep in mind, he has actually met the bird.

 

[Jayyj]

I'm no expert but I'll have a go at this and hope no one who genuinely knows what they're doing chips in and contradicts me too badly (Origin Of Species is not exactly good bedtime reading, and I never did get to the end of it!).

The species groups and families are defined according to divergent evolution, so they represent birds that belong to the same branch of a larger family tree. The larger, more generic groups (such as parrots or raptors) contain multiple species groups that are joined together through convergent evolution.

A good example of of divergent evolution would be bald eagles and coopers hawks, which are from the same family of accipitridae but have evolved to look totally different to each other due to having adapted to totally different prey and environments.A good example of convergent evolution would be bald eagles and ospreys, which are are much more distantly related (ospreys actually have their own pandionidae family of which they're the only member) but have ended up looking pretty similar due to many thousands of years of hunting the same prey in the same environment. Falcons, although similar in appearance to other birds of prey, come from an even more distant connection and there's current speculation that falcons are more closely related to parrots then they are hawks or eagles.

In the case of patagonian conures, conures and macaws represent a fork in the road from a common ancestor, and the conures have all evolved from one branch and the macaws from the other, so the patagonian is a conure because it's roots can be traced to after the point where conures branched away from that original fork. It's similarity to macaws may be due to convergent evolution where it has adapted to a particular environment that makes it look coincidentally more like a macaw than other conures, or it may be that the patagonian is closest to the original fork and other conures have evolved to be further removed from their macaw cousins.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Jayyj, many thanks!

I followed your explanation! Makes total sense... convergent evolution producing similar phenotypes based on similar natural selection after the occurrence of the forks... so Rickeybirds are conures because that's their branch... and they may look macaw-ish due to the convergent evolution OR just being closer to the fork than other conures. I like to paraphrase when I'm learning something.

Thank you, Darwin brainiac.

 

[MonicaMc]

Makes me think of some similar in appearance parrots....

Red Fronted Macaw
Thick Billed Conure
Hoffman's Conure
Red Eared Conure
Rose Crowned Conure
Red Fronted Kakariki
Musk Lorikeet


Might be missing a species or two, but I find it interesting how all the ones I've listed have red on the head in a kind of specific area.



Anyway, here's the possible potagonian x macaw hybrid, Chaz!

https://www.flickr.com/search/?w=1329724@N20&m=pool&q=chaz


He was a rescue/rehome bird, so no clue on breeder. Some speculate he could be a red front macaw hybrid, but he doesn't look like any RFM hybrids out there.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!
I always feel a little heart-throb when I see any Patagonian, and I got one looking at that bird!!!!!!!!! That's a Rickeybird beady eyeball and patch, and a macaw beak, and turquoise Rickeybird flights, and macaw feet. I wonder what he sounds like.
Thanks for that, Monica.


P.S. I wonder what is apparently so useful about a red spot!

 

[MonicaMc]

As far as I know, there is no video of Chaz, but his human, I think, is technically challenged, so since we have photos, I think that might be all we may ever get! I kind of wonder what he sounds like, too!

 

[GaleriaGila]

Perhaps not surprisingly, I'm convinced I could identify any Patagonian vocalization whatsoever, so I'd love just a phone call to see what I might pick up.
That bird really made an impression on me. Just so striking to see such familiarity yet such difference. Big fella, too.

 

[snowflake311]

This might help but might not. I found it interesting.

[ame="https://youtu.be/mieTf9WK_Xk"]What's a Conure? - YouTube[/ame]

 

[GaleriaGila]

Thank you for that!!!

I thoroughly enjoyed it... learned a couple of things, too!