parrots vs humans

[paulhanlon]

Ok so i have being in a debate with my younger brother who thinks that us humans are smarter than our beloved feathered friends I disagree I think that our fids are 100× smarter than us humans and I'd like to find anyone who could tell me differant now we all have heard the story of dr irene pepperberg and Alex the African grey I have also read the book by Irene pepperberg Alex and me it gave me a real insight of just how intellagent our birds are but I would like to hear everyone's thoughts on this subject just so i can stick the results right up my brothers butt

 

[aliray]

number one who does the cooking cleaning and buying all the goodies the fids love or in other words who trains who? I agree they can outsmart us faster than we can process what they are up to. and they turn us into loving little slaves to serve and cater to their every whim. Alison and sweetie pie

 

[Pookamama]

You'd have to define what you meant by "smarter than".

 

[paulhanlon]

I mean when it comes to solving puzzles making us look like idiots as they do you know just when it comes to thinking they are better than us at alot of things that's why I think they are smarter than us by far.

 

[Pookamama]

I have often wondered that about certain animals. If we could communicate perfectly across the language barriers then we'd get a better picture of just what goes on in their heads. I bet parrots are smarter at some things, and humans are smarter at others. There's many different kinds of intelligence. For example, my husband can solve complex math problems in his head, but I am very adept at figuring out spatial physical puzzles and have a keen sense of directions when it comes to maps and navigating. Some people are more adept at communication and reading emotions, some people are better at quietly and persistently working at problems for a long time until they figure it out no matter how frustrated they get. I
imagine parrots may have several things they are much keener at than humans. If we could communicate telepathically we'd probably be even more amazed at parrots.

 

[paulhanlon]

Its so strange in a way but just think we have a voice box where as parrots don't but still they are able to talk just like us I'm sure there is alot more than meets the eye when it Comes to our fids and some time in the future Im sure someone will truly find our how intellagent these animals really are but I would agree that us humans are better at doing most things as where our birds are better at other things its just amazing the things these exotic animals can say and do it really is.

 

[mcw009]

Its so strange in a way but just think we have a voice box where as parrots don't but still they are able to talk just like us I'm sure there is alot more than meets the eye when it Comes to our fids and some time in the future Im sure someone will truly find our how intellagent these animals really are but I would agree that us humans are better at doing most things as where our birds are better at other things its just amazing the things these exotic animals can say and do it really is.

Parrots don't have a larynx, but we don't have a syrinx like they do. I don't think you can judge someone or something's intelligence based on physical attributes.

"Intelligence" is a vague term. What defines it? Unless you define it as "the ability to fly without tools," I believe you'd be hard-pressed to find actual evidence that birds are more intelligent than humans. At the end of the day, who goes to sleep in the cage?

 

[DebsFlock]

I think parrots could potentially have evolved to be the dominant species on the planet if we hadn't beat them to it, although having to stand on their "hands" might have been a real handicap when it came to developing industry... ever read "West of Eden"?

On the other hand, in the current circumstance, they are not as intelligent as humans. Alex, who was a rocket scientist of an African Grey, was remarkable. He could count to 5, he had a concept of "zero" and he appeared to have a sense of humor. He was not, however, doing calculus, reading the newspaper or even counting to 10. So we are MUCH more intelligent on virtually every measurable scale. However, Alex is one case that is compelling in arguing that the difference between "lower animals" and humans is one of degree not kind. His level of intellectual function can be compared to a very young human child, at least in some respects.

Bird's brains are much, much smaller than ours are. That suggests that, while we use only a tiny fraction of our neurological capacity, they must be running close to full out to do what they are able to do. Which suggests their potential as they are right now, is much less than our potential should we somehow tap into all that unused grey matter.

I think one reason we are able to perceive parrots as being quite intelligent is that they are in several important ways similar to humans. That makes us able to appreciate what we are observing more than when we look at, say, a rat or a pig, which are also pretty intelligent but dissimilar to humans in those key ways.

I think that those key aspects are:

* They are very visually oriented -- they are driven more by what they see than what they hear or smell

* They are inherently oriented towards communicating using sounds, in the case of most parrots, adaptive/learned sounds. Most other animal species communicate much more frequently through body language or even smell.

* They have grasping feet that they use to manipulate objects around them in very much the same way we can use our hands, although with less finesse and only one at a time unless they are flat on their backs.

These things make it easier for us to perceive their intelligence, and at times makes them seem uncannily "human", but it is unclear to me how much more intelligent they actually are than other species. Cross species intelligence comparisons are very difficult because the social and survival skills needed vary so much from a cetacean to a parrot to a horse to a cat to a dog.

In addition, possibly as a result of what is needed to manage flight and complex social behaviors, they make correlations rapidly and easily. That is to say, they can connect cause and effect very efficiently, so they learn quickly, sometimes from a single repetition (hence they easily learn to scream and to bite if it gets them what they want!).

 

[friedsoup]

Well don't forget the Dr. Pepperburg had almost unlimited undergrad students to spend time with Alex to help train him and when she went to work unlike most of us her birds were her work and while I'm on the subject Alex was not the best feathered bird I ever saw not sure he plucked but the definatly barbered his feathers. So Mishkia has him beat there, also I've seen elaborate nest but never seen a Victorian mansion made by birds or a Prymaid so I guess we got them beat there.

 

[paulhanlon]

I wouldn't disagree with you on that one mishka is brilliant and i take my hat off to ant for how well she has trained him and your right Alex isn't the most amazing bird I have seen I would say Einstein is that bird is just amazing also there is groucho the amazing signing amazon but by far my favourite African grey has to be mishka and ant is going to love me for saying that lol but its true

 

[DebsFlock]

If Einstein is the Einstein I've seen videos of talking on cue, I'm personally far less impressed with that than what Alex was able to do. The point of Pepperberg's research wasn't actually the "talking" part at all, she was using it as a way to get insight into his cognitive abilities in terms of things like numbers, counting, being able to sort things into categories and so forth. So his vocabulary wasn't very interesting really, and he didn't do things on cue. But what he could do was be presented with a tray that had 3 yellow circle blocks, 2 green triangle blocks and four blue square blocks and correctly answer questions like "how many yellow?" and "what shape blue"? Remarkable.

He was apparently a very sensitive and temperamental grey. I am not aware that he plucked, but in "Alex and Me" she mentions that she used to take him home with her at night fairly often, but one day he saw a bird of prey out the window and he would never settle down in the house again.

 

[Mozzie]

I think Alex was amazing, but it is true they worked him non stop. It kind of makes me think they worked him too hard and stressed him out in the process. I have seen many video's of him just asking to go back (meaning to his cage). I agree that Mishka gets the award for the most amazing parrot. He truly is amazing!!

 

[paulhanlon]

I think Alex was amazing, but it is true they worked him non stop. It kind of makes me think they worked him too hard and stressed him out in the process. I have seen many video's of him just asking to go back (meaning to his cage). I agree that Mishka gets the award for the most amazing parrot. He truly is amazing!!

I'm not sure if they work Alex non stop but the night he past his last words were night I love you but the documentary I seen on him did look like he was worked hard.

 

[antoinette]

Thanks for all the lovely compliments, I will mention them to Mishka.

Birds can out smart us but humans are extremely more clever than birds.

An African Grey's brain is the size of a walnut, and I reckon they use it to their full ability, if give then opportunity.

African Grey's have the potential to develop, equivalent to that of a 5 year old child.

 

[paulhanlon]

Well you cleared that one up for me Antoinette and indeed give mishka a kiss from me

 

[antoinette]

I wouldn't disagree with you on that one mishka is brilliant and i take my hat off to ant for how well she has trained him and your right Alex isn't the most amazing bird I have seen I would say Einstein is that bird is just amazing also there is groucho the amazing signing amazon but by far my favourite African grey has to be mishka and ant is going to love me for saying that lol but its true

I find it hard to believe you guys are comparing Mishka to Alex.
Alex was a legend.

As you all are well aware I entered Mishka into the Guinness Book of World Records, for his talking ability.

Mishka's attempt to be in the Guinness Book Of World Records

Here was one of their "queries"

[FONT=&quot]Dear Antoinette Routledge,

Many thanks for your claim.

Just to confirm that we have a category which can be linked to your claim which is:

The most intelligent parrot is Alex, an African Grey who knows words for over 35 objects and seven colors. Alex also has a functional use of phrases and a distinction between three, four, five and six sided shapes. His accuracy has averaged 80% when tested on these abilities.

What we will require from you is video evidence which clearly shows the full ranges of vocabulary which if it betters our current record we can verify. We will also require picture(s) and any other supporting information which is relevant and could support your claim. [/FONT]

I sent them footage (video's) where Mishka and myself are having daily conversation, where I ask Mishka questions and he replies back correctly. Pages of words and sentences which Mishka is saying.

Including what is stated below


[FONT=&quot]The difference between Alex and Mishka[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alex was an experimental subject. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Alex [/FONT][FONT=&quot]was not Irene [/FONT]Pepperber’s pet, he was an experiment subject. He did not live in her home, he lived in a laboratory. Irene was his primary guardian, and had staff of interns and students caring for and teaching Alex.
Mishka is our pet, lives in our home, and is a member of our family. Participating in everyday activities and conversations.

Alex had a vocabulary of about 150 words. Alex had the understanding of objects, the different shapes and colours.

[FONT=&quot]Mishka[/FONT][FONT=&quot] speaks more actual individual words than what Alex spoke. Taking the amount of spoken words by Mishka, with recognition of word meanings. Mishka’s vocabulary is larger than what Alex’s was. When asking Mishka questions, he replies back correctly, understand what is being asked. When asked questions by Mishka, I reply, Mishka then carries on with the conversation, keeping in line with the actual “topic”[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]This is another category of sheer amount of words spoken and understood.[/FONT]

This puts both birds in different categories.

[FONT=&quot]The name ALEX is an anagram … [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A = Avian[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]L = Learning[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]EX = Experiment[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]The word PET[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Any domesticated or tamed animal that is kept as a companion and cared for affectionately. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I was privileged to become Mishka’s guardian when he was 6 weeks old. I began talking to Mishka from day one. Each night he sits on my lap, for an hour, playing and chatting to each other. I saying a few new words to him, putting them into sentences. He talks when he wants to talk. Mishka chats to himself throughout the day practicing words. When he hears a new word, he says it repeatedly, until he pronounces it correctly. On his own he begins to fit the new words into sentences. Mishka has the most incredible ability to mix and match words together. When at home, 24/7 over weekends, we talk continuously to each other, having the most incredible conversations. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alex was a very clever bird, there is no way I am comparing Mishka to him. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Alex died at the age of 31, accomplishing so much.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mishka is turning 5 years old on 27th November 2012. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Mishka in comparison to Alex is still a baby. [/FONT]

 

[DebsFlock]

I obviously need to catch up on our hometown hero here, Mishka! There is a Guiness category for largest vocabulary for a bird and that I believe is held by a budgie!

I think Alex was amazing, but it is true they worked him non stop. It kind of makes me think they worked him too hard and stressed him out in the process. I have seen many video's of him just asking to go back (meaning to his cage).

Hang on a minute here... was it WORK from Alex's point of view? In a lot of ways his life was close to the ideal, he had the best of everything care-wise and could be out and interacting with his flock, human and avian, all day. And he did, in fact, know how to ask to go back to his cage, and I believe he generally did get to go back to his cage when he asked. He also knew how to stonewall and be uncooperative when he didn't want to "play".

I'll admit that a lot of my impression of Alex was formed through reading Pepperberg's book "Alex and Me" and you would have to consider her a biased witness, but it is clear she genuinely cares for her experimental subjects. She was evidently drawn to researching parrots through having budgies as a child. The book is a good read for a parrot owner anyway, and I highly recommend it.

One thing to keep in mind about Alex is that, while he was the first subject Pepperberg had, he was far from the only one, and she has yet to find another Grey that can do as much as Alex was able to do. He was unique and it is unfortunate he did not live his full span of years.

 

[paulhanlon]

From what I have seen of mishka I actually believe that he could be the current guinness world record holder mishka is just outstanding in my eyes

 

[paulhanlon]

I think mishka takes the cup for talking lol

 

[Pookamama]

Antoinette, when Do you find out if he will make it into the book? That is excellent, you have put a lot of love and care into Mishka. I have learned a lot from your posts and your website that I hope to put into use when we get our TAG.