Not much change after being on medication

[louise22]

1 of my birds have been into the vets a few times since getting them.

Symptoms
...He makes snuffling/squeaking noises when breathing...worse at nights, when eating or after a bath.
...He occasionally has watery eyes
...he drinks alot more than the other bird
...occasionally opens beak slightly when breathing (when he inhales)
...inflammation and losing feather on his face
...scratches and rubs his face alot
...when he is eating (you can see in the video) he gets a lump on his throat that balloons in and out...this has also happened a few times during the night but the lump is slightly lower down and goes up and down and when he breathes in, he makes a clicking noise
...occasionally clear liquid from nostril

First visit, he was treated for an upper respiratory infection with 2 weeks of marbocyl antibiotics and metacam. The breathing sounds went away straight away but started again on the last 4 days. Last visit, he had a nasal flush and alot of blood and pus came out which was tested and came back positive for enterobacter. He was then given the same 2 meds but to be given for 4 to 6 weeks. He has now been on them for just under 5 weeks. He is barely making the noises but still does occasionally (took 2 weeks on the meds to go away this time), he has been open beak breathing more than he did before, still scratching and eyes are still watery and inflamed. Also looks like he has a lump (circled on the 1st pic)..?? Just wondering if anyone else's bird has had this and how did the treatment go and what treatment wormked..?? I have read that feeding sprouts/soaked seeds can cause enterobacter so I'm worried that he just got that since feeding sprouts but his breathing problems (started before getting sprouts) are from something else and he is having to go even longer without treatment because he is being treated for enterobacter...Are these actually the symptoms of enterobacter? what else should I test for etc..?? Vet did try taking a blood test (not sure what for) but he wriggled too much and she didn't manage to get enough blood so will need sedated for it next time. He isn't tame and free flies 24/7 (his 2 last owners never had them out of the cage so now when they get shut in one, they stress and climb around the full time they are in it) and I have to catch him everyday to give him medication which is horrible to have to put him through so just hoping to get him back to full health as soon as. The other bird has no symptoms at all.

 

[louise22]

Forgot to add that he has to go in anyday again for a check up but just looking for advice from people that have went through it and what I should bring up with the vet, tests etc

 

[ravvlet]

A blood panel would be really helpful to rule out any number of diseases, from fatty liver and kidney issues to heart disease and even diabetes. Obviously culturing what comes out of the bird as far as discharge goes can diagnosis bacterial issues, but there’s a lot of problems their little bodies can hide!

Be sure your vet is able to get that CBC. Smaller parrots can be a real pain to get a significant blood sample from. Is your vet avian board certified?

I see in another thread also you’ve asked if bleeding after a nasal flush is normal - the answer is a conditional yes; it IS normal if they were able to get foreign material and discharge out (which seems to be the case here). Kirby has had some productive nasal flushes, where afterwards there was a small amount of bleeding.

If you are worried about his nostril getting clogged or scabbed over, you can get sterile saline solution (they sell it at the pharmacy as a nasal flush for humans - make sure it’s ONLY saline) and can put a drop in each nostril when you medicate him. As you are already seeing the vet about his illness, I’d ask them first before trying that - but it can help prevent discharge from building up again.

Our Amazon has had a lot of upper respiratory infections so we’ve done this song and dance a couple times. It’s frustrating when symptoms do not seem to resolve - it likely means there is an underlying issue. I wish you the best of luck and I hope that you’ll keep us updated! They are beautiful little birds.

 

[louise22]

Thanks. Will ask about having him sedated for bloods when he next goes in. The enterobacter was found when the discharge from the nasal flush was cultured. She is an exotic vet. Most vets in my area don't have avian specialists or won't see any birds just now due to avian flu so this is the closest one, just over an hour away. Glad it's normal. Don't think I would feel comfortable doing that but would take him to the vet any time it causes a problem. Aw, glad you got him/her sorted. I will update once he has been to the vet again. Thank you

 

[HeatherG]

I notice the color change around the eyes of one bird and wonder if those eyes are swollen (or around the eyes are swollen) or if that’s just feather loss. I am wondering about a sinus problem around the eyes of that bird. Their (parrot) sinuses are not as enclosed as human sinuses so they can swell up more visibly.

Anyhow that’s the first thing I noticed about the bird. After watching the video, yes he’s active and vocal, but those eye areas don’t look right.

I would take this lovely bird to the vet for more treatment.

 

[louise22]

I notice the color change around the eyes of one bird and wonder if those eyes are swollen (or around the eyes are swollen) or if that’s just feather loss. I am wondering about a sinus problem around the eyes of that bird. Their (parrot) sinuses are not as enclosed as human sinuses so they can swell up more visibly.

Anyhow that’s the first thing I noticed about the bird. After watching the video, yes he’s active and vocal, but those eye areas don’t look right.

I would take this lovely bird to the vet for more treatment.

Think it's both. Mostly affecting the right side. He has been on metacam for 8 weeks but still inflamed. Just the right lump in his cheek area I'm worried about, not sure if it could be an abscess. He has to go in before his meds run out so will definitely be in within 12 days anyway

 

[HeatherG]

I would take him in as soon as you can get an appointment. Can you imagine, his sinus is so infected it’s swelling OUT?

Can he go back to the vet sooner ? Or at least call them and ask for their advice?

 

[SailBoat]

As has been stated above, what is seen in the photos and video is 'not' normal and the medication should have had greater effect by this time. Sinus /neck infections are a pain as reinfection is so easy.

As stated above, Blood testing is critical as there are just so many underlining illnesses and medical issues that can /do weaken their natural defensives and/or prevent the effectiveness of the current treatment. The puffy neck bubble(?) that moves and the swelling near the eye are very concerning as well.

Old Timer View Point: As stated, the eyes and surrounding area do not look healthy. The watering of the eyes is likely connected to the swelling near the eyes.

Just beyond, the illness is the possibility of a or several Allergies that could be 'contributing.' Also, if you live in areas of the North that are using forced air heating, check and assure that the filters are being changed regularly and last, but not least, check your Relative Humidity in your home! It should be at least 45% or higher.

Ask for the Vet visitation reports from the prior visits and have this upcoming visit report emailed to you. It will help in defining what they are attempting to treat and why.

 

[ravvlet]

Oh, another thing - if you’re treating for bacteria you need to fully disinfect his cage and toys before finishing treatment and again after. I love F10 for this - you can buy it super concentrated & dilute it yourself or buy it in a spray bottle - but you do need to move the birds out of the room.

If getting F10 isn’t possible (you can order it on Amazon!) then use a dilute bleach solution on everything, including toys that can be washed (& throw away any that cannot be).

Make sure everything is rinsed thoroughly and dried fully before returning to the bird. A nice trick a lot of folks here use is to run wooden or rope perches and toys through the dishwasher on hot without detergent to rinds them off.

Basically, you want to eliminate as much of the bacteria he has no doubt shed into the environment so that he doesn’t reinfect himself. We actually have incorporated this kind of disinfecting into our regular monthly deep clean routine - something you may consider if it turns out he’s prone to this sort of thing.

 

[HeatherG]

I would address this so it doesn’t spread.
I feel sorry for this bird. His head may hurt a lot.

 

[louise22]

There is a humidifier in the room and always around 50. Is f10 safe even if not rinsed properly? (will do my best but hate using products incase I don't rinse off properly) and also, can it be used on natural wood perches that have been stripped of bark, so not smooth? Don't have a dishwasher, can rope perches be sprayed with f10....is soaking in boiling water good enough to get the infection/bacteria off of everything?

 

[HeatherG]

Can you wash and bake wood perched or are they too big?

Boiling water is great. Bleaching with 10% bleach of a cleaned perch and then rinsing is great. F10 is good. Honestly it doesn’t have to be sterile but just cutting down the number of bacteria is healthy.

I might take the bird in with me into the bathroom for a shower and see if that will help unclog him. (In a carrier or cage). It sure helps me. In fact I would put him in a steamy room as much as you can. Maybe that would help. Poor little guy.

 

[LoveOfallAnimals]

Since there is more than one F10 make sure you are getting the F10SC. The following is from the manufacture.

F10SC (super concentrate) veterinary disinfectant is an EPA approved hospital grade disinfectant. It is used in many of the world’s leading veterinary hospitals and zoological institutions as well as by leading reptile, avian and exotic pet breeders and keepers. F10 disinfectant is widely recognized as the most effective and economical total spectrum disinfectant on the market.


The benefits of using F10SC include:

– It’s non-corrosive, non-toxic, non-irritating and aldehyde free so has no adverse effects on people, animals, equipment or surfaces. It has been proven effective at recommended concentrations against all types of bacteria, fungi and spores including MRSA, avian influenza, psittacine beak and feather disease, canine parvovirus, e.coli, aspergillus and a host of others.
– Can be used in a wide range of applications — disinfecting cages, water bowls, floors, racks, shelving, perches and toys, food preparation areas, inside incubators, washing eggs and decontaminating hands. F10SC can also be applied as a fog or fine spray to mist rooms to eradicate airborne microbes and to stop cross contamination.
– Active against bacteria, fungi and spores. It is an excellent product for achieving a high level of biosecurity and poses no hazard to yourself or your animals when used at recommended concentrations.
– It’s non- toxic, non-corrosive & biodegradable.
– Can be sprayed on and left to disinfect after cleaning with no need to rinse off. Unlike many other products F10 stays active providing an ongoing residual effect.

How to dilute F10Sc:

– For general disinfection – use 2ml in 1 litre (1:500)
– For higher level disinfection against bacteria, fungi and most viruses – use 4ml in 1 litre (1:250)
– For use against the most resistant viruses, PBFD, Parvovirus and more – 8ml in 1 litre (1:125)

 

[HeatherG]

Since there is more than one F10 make sure you are getting the F10SC. The following is from the manufacture.

F10SC (super concentrate) veterinary disinfectant is an EPA approved hospital grade disinfectant. It is used in many of the world’s leading veterinary hospitals and zoological institutions as well as by leading reptile, avian and exotic pet breeders and keepers. F10 disinfectant is widely recognized as the most effective and economical total spectrum disinfectant on the market.


The benefits of using F10SC include:

– It’s non-corrosive, non-toxic, non-irritating and aldehyde free so has no adverse effects on people, animals, equipment or surfaces. It has been proven effective at recommended concentrations against all types of bacteria, fungi and spores including MRSA, avian influenza, psittacine beak and feather disease, canine parvovirus, e.coli, aspergillus and a host of others.
– Can be used in a wide range of applications — disinfecting cages, water bowls, floors, racks, shelving, perches and toys, food preparation areas, inside incubators, washing eggs and decontaminating hands. F10SC can also be applied as a fog or fine spray to mist rooms to eradicate airborne microbes and to stop cross contamination.
– Active against bacteria, fungi and spores. It is an excellent product for achieving a high level of biosecurity and poses no hazard to yourself or your animals when used at recommended concentrations.
– It’s non- toxic, non-corrosive & biodegradable.
– Can be sprayed on and left to disinfect after cleaning with no need to rinse off. Unlike many other products F10 stays active providing an ongoing residual effect.

How to dilute F10Sc:

– For general disinfection – use 2ml in 1 litre (1:500)
– For higher level disinfection against bacteria, fungi and most viruses – use 4ml in 1 litre (1:250)
– For use against the most resistant viruses, PBFD, Parvovirus and more – 8ml in 1 litre (1:125)

I’ve had this disinfectant and used it on bird stuff and in my bathroom. I used to work with animal viruses and bacteria and really needed to know I was clean when I got home.

 

[louise22]

Update - He was at the vet 2 days ago to be sedated for a blood sample. Going to be tested for ...chlamydia antibody (he has been tested for chlamydia through stool sample using 3 days of stool but I heard that is not as accurate as blood test so wanted this just to be sure)
...BPFD + Polyoma (not really sure why after searching online about it...sounds nothing like what he has...and also liver and kidney's. I did ask about aspergillosis but vet said he isn't usually the species to get it. She said the lump that balloons in and out on his throat/chest area could possibly be an air sac and said it could be hyper something (I forget the word) if anyone knows..?? Would like to search about it. Vet has said that she wants to wait for results to come through before trying different medication but due to the swelling on his cheeks, could continue with metacam...but he has been on it for 9 weeks and doing nothing to help. Vet said that doxycycline is a drug that doesn't get rid of enterobacter but may give it a try or baytril. I have looked through the animal genetics website (where his blood is being sent to for tests) and saw a few other things that I might have him tested for depending on the results - Mycobacterium, Psittacine Herpesvirus and aspergillosis...not sure if all are possible in this breed etc, just read the symptoms so far.

 

[ravvlet]

This sounds like such a nightmare situation! I hope the blood results come back quickly. A full CBC would not test for disease but it would indicate if his liver or kidney levels are off - had he already had that done?

 

[louise22]

Oh it really is. So horrible for him when he has the worst breathing difficulties, always so worried that he can't actually breathe...just want him to get treatment that works so he can finally feel relief as it's been a long time. Vet said it will also check his red and white blood cells. He hasn't had this test before, vet said she didn't think testing his liver etc was nessacery as he is acting so normal but thought I would just get as much as possible tested just incase