New World Parrots - Amazons

[SailBoat]

I know that I have been a bit pushy regarding the classification of Yellow-Wing vs Blue-Fronted Amazons and that may have caused some lifted feathers.

My concern was and is based around maintaining clarity regarding the full family of known Amazons.

As I have posted in several different parts of the Parrot Forum, Yellow-Wing and Blue-Fronted are not the same. The push-back set me to triple checking myself. What I have found shocked me. It seems that with in the last five plus years many information sources have photos of Yellow-Wing Amazons under the title of Blue-Fronted (common) even using the Blue-Fronted (common) precise name.

So what, they are the same family could be the comments from some of you and please understand I take no offense to that position. My concern it that 'WE' as Amazon Lovers/Owners are in the process of losing a species (the Blue-Fronted (common)).

Is that something that we are OK with or is there some concern regarding the lost of a species?

 

[Giggleagain]

I have no answers for you, but questions! Your post made me go look up both yellow wing and blue front amazons. What I found puzzles me because most blue fronts also have some yellow on their wings. Just very few photos show a blue front without any yellow at all on the wings.

So: when is a blue front a true blue front? Are the various amounts of yellow on the wings just variations on the blue front amazon, or ......? What a confusing subject!!!

I'm sure these are dumb questions that most of you can answer, but I have to ask it anyway!

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Looking at Amy..my Blue Front..to me..she is CLEARLY a Blue Front..Blue around her beak,and on her face. Sometimes with her molts,there is varying amounts of blue. Sometimes there is ALOT of blue,other molts very little.
Looking at her arms,there is also yellow patches on her shoulders,always there,no matter how her molt goes.
Is she a "true" blue front? Or is she a yellow armed? <wing> She is a BF to me,no matter how you look at it.

Jim

 

[Aquila]

Here's Sydney, would you call him a yellow wing?

My confusion comes from the variety in individual variation, color patterns and amount of blue. Without doing any kind of genetic testing on our birds, and without knowing their lineage can cause more confusion I'm sure. My suspicion is that they are two branches of the same tree, either sharing a common ancestor and branching off depending on region, or two different types that interbred.

I take no offense to your opinions and theories! I want to know more about my bird and love knowing about their history!

 

[SailBoat]

Thank-you for your posts and interests. The Blue-Fronted family has four members. The nominate (common) Blue-Fronted, which there is two ('classic' & 'blue faced') , the Yellow-Wing, and the Yellow-Wing, type 2 ('aka' Bolivian), which I have listed below.

The process of determining your Amazons correct classification is a process of reading each description and by determining which 'does not' define your Amazon, what is left is most likely yours. Based upon the single photo provided it is more difficult than when one is with the Amazon.

In your opinion, does your Amazon have big feet and big wings? It appears to me that it may, however with the sitting position it is hard to be sure. The other item is the creamy-white behind the turquoise just above the nostrils. And third the black scalloping at the end of the breast feathers. There are other items, but it would appear to me that your have one or the other of the two Yellow-Wing. Please take the time to review the descriptions below and see for yourself. Enjoy!




Blue-Fronted Amazons

Detailed Description of three different BLUE-FRONTED AMAZONS


Blue-Fronted (A. aestiva aestiva (nominate))

Color: Basic grass green, tending towards olive

Breast: Bright green, yellower than grass, no scalloping. Red/pink hearts to feathers mainly males. In some bird’s breast lightly washed with blue.

Forehead: Deep turquoise or royal blue.

Head Feathers: Behind blue forehead a band of off-white feathers merging into deep yellow, which extends onto the checks, around eyes and in ‘classic’ extends down forming a ‘bib’ on the upper chest. ‘Blue’ faced’ type more common than classic, sometimes with little or not yellow. Green feathers of head and in to center back slightly scallop with grey.

Cere, Nostrils and Beak: Dark grey to black

Mouth and Tongue: Black

Bend of Wing: Solid bright deep blood red up to and over bend of wing, odd feather may show fleck of orange yellow (especially juveniles)

Carpal Edge: Pale lime green often with flecks of red

Legs and Feet: Short legs, dark grey with black toenails

General Shape: Stockily-built bird, appears ‘broad-shoulder’

Character and Expression: Very strong-willed birds, tend to be very aggressive in breeding condition / situation. Very confident expression / demeanor.

Vocalization: Very different from others

Distribution: Wide range through northeast and eastern Brazil to south Matto Grosso



Yellow-Wing (A. aestiva xathopteryx)

Color: Deeper grass green, with darker scalping

Breast: Similar yellow-green with very slight scalloping Can have blue tinge extending onto abdomen in varying degrees

Forehead: Varying amounts & shades turquoise

Head Feathers: Behind blue frontal feathers a band of creamy-white edging merges into primrose yellow, which can extend over head, neck and chest (as nominate) but usually restricted to head. Green head feathers scalloped dark grey to black carrying down sides of neck.

Cere, Nostrils and Beak: Grey to black

Mouth and Tongue: Black

Bend of Wing: Red edge up to bend of wing, buttercup yellow on bend extending onto wing; sometimes covering up to one third of wing

Carpal Edge: Yellow green

Legs and Feet: Long legs, dark grey with black toenails

General Shape: Longer slimmer bird, usually larger. Greater wingspan, long tail

Character and Expression: Not so strong-willed, sometimes a little flighty, often with an aloof / surprised expression

Vocalization: balanced

Distribution: Chaco



Yellow-Wing, type 2 (aka ‘Bolivian’) (A. aestiva xathopteryx type 2)

Color: Similar dark grass green as Yellow-Wing, with more extensive dark scalloping

Breast: Yellow-green with darker scalloping. Often, extensive blue wash to throat, which can extend to breast & abdomen

Forehead: Varying amounts & shades turquoise, usually deeper

Head Feathers: Most birds have much brighter turquoise blue on and around head, interspersed with shades of yellow in varying amounts. Green head feathers heavily scalloped black carrying down sides of neck

Cere, Nostrils and Beak: Grey to black

Mouth and Tongue: Black

Bend of Wing: Red edge up to bend of wing, buttercup yellow on bend, then red and yellow interspersed on the bend and extending onto wing in varying amounts

Carpal Edge: Yellow green

Legs and Feet: Long legs, dark grey with black toenails

General Shape: Stream-lined long slim bird with long wings and tail

Character and Expression: Usually playful, boisterous, inquisitive with mischievous expression

Vocalization: Very vocal birds

Distribution: North and eastern Bolivia, Paraguay and north Argentina, vast range

 

[Aquila]

A few other pictures from different angles. He's a very strong willed bird, and can be aggressive certain times of the year. His build seems more stocky to me than long and thin, and besides his nostril area, there isn't any more blue. He's fairly large, about 1.5X the size of my Grey and significantly heavier.

 

[Nakiska]

Aquila WOW! He is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!! I love love LOVE this last picture of him looking back over his shoulder. Melting here....

Toni

 

[henpecked]

I'm tired of typing responds and losing them. Not sure what's up. If you want me to explain it to you give me a call, it's too long and involved.

 

[Aquila]

Aquila WOW! He is absolutely BEAUTIFUL!! I love love LOVE this last picture of him looking back over his shoulder. Melting here....

Toni

Thanks! You'd never know he's got screwy feet and a lumpy butt, lol. He's made such a good recovery. A lot of the lumps he had on his body thankfully went away, save for the few he has near his hiney. As much trouble as he can be sometimes, I wouldn't trade him for anything. He's just starting to fly again after having him for a few years.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Here's Sydney, would you call him a yellow wing?

My confusion comes from the variety in individual variation, color patterns and amount of blue. Without doing any kind of genetic testing on our birds, and without knowing their lineage can cause more confusion I'm sure. My suspicion is that they are two branches of the same tree, either sharing a common ancestor and branching off depending on region, or two different types that interbred.

I take no offense to your opinions and theories! I want to know more about my bird and love knowing about their history!

Sydney is a very handsome guy! He surely has much more blue on his face than my Amy..and quite a bit more yellow on his arms..<look at my avatar for Amys' coloring>
I can clearly see your confusion in determining what "type" of 'zon that guy is lol.
I know that I would refer to him as a Blue Front..:54:

Jim

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

A few other pictures from different angles. He's a very strong willed bird, and can be aggressive certain times of the year. His build seems more stocky to me than long and thin, and besides his nostril area, there isn't any more blue. He's fairly large, about 1.5X the size of my Grey and significantly heavier.

Golly! I LOVE the first photo of Sydney! Now THATS an expression!
To be honest..He could be Amy's brother!

Jim

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

There is very little yellow on Amy's shoulders..her beak is gray..alot of yellow on her face and halfway down her throat and halfway up her noggin.. Now I see her left shoulder also has red on it and it has more yellow then her right arm I'm confused now lol!

Oh..she went outside yesterday for a very good shower..she smells soooo good and her feathers are so soft!

Jim

View attachment 15294

 

[SailBoat]

First, thank-you Aguila for taking the time to provide the photos of Sydney. I also hope that he continues to recover well. He is truly a beauty Amazon.

The descriptive items that separate Sydney from one type to another are the following:
Breast:
Forehead:
Head Feathers:
Bent of Wing:

Although the photos are wonderful and provide great detail, without special training and equipment determining his size is difficult.

I have owned both a Blue-Fronted 'classic' Amazon (SueSue) and also a Yellow-Wing Amazon (Darby). Darby was presented to us as a Blue-Fronted. It was not until the US Amazon Society joined with the primary group in England in support funding of a study of the declining population of Amazons in Chaco did I even give any wonder as to Darby's true classification. As field photos began pouring it of the Yellow-Wing Amazons they had been study did I begin seeing the likeness to our Darby. Darby, the wealth of photos from Chaco and the descriptions provided above and it was clear that Darby was not a Blue-Fronted 'classic', but a Yellow-Wing.

So, when was the last time anyone in this Forum saw a Blue-Fronted 'Blue-Faced' Amazon? Its been over thirty years for me. At one point they were as common as the Blue-Fronted 'classic'.

Has anyone seen a Yellow-Wing, type 2 (aka 'Bolivian') or even knew that they existed? I know that I have never seen one.

My point in all of this is that photos in current information sources are of Yellow-Wing Amazons named as Blue-Fronted (A. aestiva aestiva (nominate)) are common. Blue-Fronted (Blue-Faced) Amazons are now very rare, Yellow-Wing, type 2 (aka 'Bolivian') never made it to North America in large enough numbers to even be rare. Now Blue-Fronted 'classic' Amazons are photo represented by Yellow-Wing Amazons. I am not sure what this will mean ten plus years from now.

Henbecked - I have experienced the same problem with posting vanishing.

 

[Birdman666]

Are we losing them, or are we just calling them something else?!

Yes, BFA's have been so cross bred in captivity, it's sometimes hard to tell what subspecies it is, it's often a mix these days.

For me, the attraction is the big outgoing BFA amazon personality. In all honesty, I never gave much thought to classification.

 

[Aquila]

Oh..she went outside yesterday for a very good shower..she smells soooo good and her feathers are so soft!

I LOVE the way Amazons smell! Glad I'm not the only one!

Golly! I LOVE the first photo of Sydney! Now THATS an expression!
To be honest..He could be Amy's brother!

How old is Amy? And is that an open band? Sydney is about 30-31 years old and has an open band, I'll have to try and write down what's on it.

 

[SailBoat]

As always, Birdman666 gets to the real point using the fewest words needed.

Sadly, with the Blue-Fronted 'Blue-Faced' Amazon, we have lost this parrot, likely as a result of a beauty contest it could not win with the Blue-Fronted 'classic' and the Yellow-Wing.

The effects of cross-breeding the Blue-Fronted 'classic' and the Yellow-Wing has and continues to blur that line. Add to that, the effects of Exporters using the Classification of Blue-Fronted for importing Yellow-Wing, a system that didn't care and what is a Blue-Fronted 'classic' is blurred from that side.

And yes and more important; the 'full family' Blue-Fronted Amazon have always been blessed with personality that are larger than life.

Again, Thank-you Birdman666 for cutting to the chase!

 

[Taw5106]

Aquila, WOW, you have a gorgeous baby!!! Just beautiful!

 

[Aquila]

Aquila, WOW, you have a gorgeous baby!!! Just beautiful!

Thank you! You would have never known a few years ago when I got him off of craigslist (FOR FREE) and he was a poor little overweight bird with no personality. Oh boy did he find it though! My only wish is that I could fix his feet!

 

[Taw5106]

What's the issue with his feet?

 

[JerseyWendy]

.....

So what, they are the same family could be the comments from some of you and please understand I take no offense to that position. My concern it that 'WE' as Amazon Lovers/Owners are in the process of losing a species (the Blue-Fronted (common)).

Is that something that we are OK with or is there some concern regarding the lost of a species?

If someone was to actively look into purchasing a 'Yellow-Winged' Amazon, such person would indeed have a difficult time, especially because of the classification (these days).

I found several articles while doing a search, and perhaps Howard Voren explains it the best (RIP Howard)
Blue Front Plumage Color Differences | Voren's Aviaries Inc

Arndt Verlag gives another detailed description between them:
Lexicon of Parrots

One thing is certain: In Europe (Germany in particular) they ARE both sold as "Blaustirnamazone" which translates into "Blue Fronted Amazon".