New Electric Automobile

[SailBoat]

A longtime friend call asking if I would come over and see what she needed to charge the new electric automobile she plans on buying with her tax return and the most recent stimulus package as the down payment. She lives in the older historical part of town and she rents. The vast majority of automobiles are parked on the street as the common small lot size have no room for parking off-street.

Rather than just provide the bad news over the phone, I thought that it would be a great idea to just verify what I ‘believed’ to be reality, I agreed to visit. Upon arrival, with great luck I found a parking place, I quickly did a walk around her home. The building had a semi-current service line from the shared power pole. The power mast was an older style with an exterior electrical meter that had been updated, to allow auto meter reading.

Once in her apartment, she showed me the electric automobile she was planning on buying and she also showed me the charging unit specifications she had gotten from the dealership. The unit had both a standard charge rate (w/ 120 AC) and a fast charge rate (240 AC) selector switch. After checking the electrical requirement, we checked out the electrical supply for the home that has three apartments. Deep in the basement on the outside wall in which the Utility power system came into the house was the older 100amp break box that had been updated sometime in the far past when the screw-in fuse system was upgraded. Several additional boxes surrounded the primary panel, likely added to avoid replacing /upgrading the primary. Adding up the primary panel breakers, which the vast majority had been upgraded to 30amp breaks clearly indicated that this panel was overloaded and with luck the primary-disconnect had not been tripping regularly.

Long story short, the combination of running a cable to her car from the home is not legal as it would cross a public sidewalk, and secondly, the primary panel would need to be upgraded as would the supply mast on the exterior of the building likely costing several thousands of dollars.

The reality: This is a common reality with the vast majority of homes across the US.

If you are planning on buying that electric automobile, you had better double check if your current electrical system will even support its charging unit!

FYI: The above is provided as a worst case, most homes cannot support the needs of an electric automobile without a major upgrade to their homes' electric system.

 

[Inger]

I’m in an apartment. No way I could have an electric vehicle. Makes me kind of sad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

We have 240 in the garage (for welding mostly) so I think this place could handle it. A couple years ago a deer took out my 2008 Altima 3.5SL and my insurance paid for a (then new) 2017 Ford Fusion Hybrid as a renter. Loaded to the max..NICE CAR...about 50mpg...too pricey for me,close to 30k.



Jim

 

[Scott]

A good thing your friend inquired before purchasing! The stealership* would promise basic 110V charger hooked to a dozen extension cords run through an open window/door as workable! Truth is you practically need 240V through a charger costing between $200 and ~$600 to avoid long charging periods.

I purchased an electric vehicle end of 2020 and did lots of research. Salesman outright lied (atypical for the brand) and claimed the included 110V charger adequate. Took 19 hours to charge while I awaited appointment for electrician to perform modifications. My single family home built 2003 has more than enough capacity to power aftermarket charger. Gladly paid for installation of two dedicated breakers and weatherproofed conduit between circuit breaker panel and driveway. I charge between every 7 to 10 days, programmed at night when pricing lowest. (we have 3 tiers and "smart meter")

City dwellers who drive minimally can benefit from commercial charging facilities if convenient to home/work. Using high voltage for fast charging, typically load roughly 60% of capacity in 20 minutes.

Newer electric vehicles have 300+ miles of range. I wound up buying a 2018 certified preowned vehicle with low miles. EVs tend to depreciate rapidly due to federal and state subsidies, so nobody pays full retail unless brand has sold large number of vehicles. My limited driving in retirement made the choice easy. Roughly 40% of my utility's electricity is from renewables.

*term for "dealerships." Tesla brand does not have typical brick/mortar stores.

 

[SailBoat]

Scott, do you have any clarity as to what a typical rapid charging session costs?

When I calculated the size of the double breaks (240V) they came very close to 20 amps. I would have upgraded to 30 amp breaker and wiring as 25 amp breakers are less common and pennies less expensive. What size breakers did your electrician install.

Yes Jim, that electrical outlet for a welder (commonly 40 amps) would more than take care of your needs. You will likely have to upgrade the outlet as older welders used a three wire head and you would need to drive a copper ground rod for the forth wire.

 

[Scott]

Scott, do you have any clarity as to what a typical rapid charging session costs?

When I calculated the size of the double breaks (240V) they came very close to 20 amps. I would have upgraded to 30 amp breaker and wiring as 25 amp breakers are less common and pennies less expensive. What size breakers did your electrician install.

Yes Jim, that electrical outlet for a welder (commonly 40 amps) would more than take care of your needs. You will likely have to upgrade the outlet as older welders used a three wire head and you would need to drive a copper ground rod for the forth wire.

In the process of changing my electric plan to better reflect overnight auto charging. Cost to charge from nearly depleted battery to 120 miles of use roughly $7.00 - and I live in one of the most expensive areas to purchase electricity and fuel! (gallon of regular unleaded approx $3.50)

Electrician installed two 20 amp breakers together with common "throw switch" labeled 40 amps. Current 220V charger limited to 16A but I wanted plenty of headroom for future EVs with larger battery capacity. This would allow installation of more capable charger with no modification.

 

[Ira7]

My neighbor bought one of these electrical things.

I’m sure he’s enjoying his new hobby, plugging the damn thing in every night, as opposed to filling his tank up every few weeks.

And of course, he hasn’t done the math yet!

 

[Scott]

My neighbor bought one of these electrical things.

I’m sure he’s enjoying his new hobby, plugging the damn thing in every night, as opposed to filling his tank up every few weeks.

And of course, he hasn’t done the math yet!

What vehicle did he buy? Charging every night vs filling his tank every few weeks doesn't compute unless he hasn't yet developed the comfort to nearly deplete the battery.

Oh, I've done the math and it is well worth the switch in my opinion in conjunction with secondary issues. And don't bother with partisan rebuttal.....

 

[Ira7]

My neighbor bought one of these electrical things.

I’m sure he’s enjoying his new hobby, plugging the damn thing in every night, as opposed to filling his tank up every few weeks.

And of course, he hasn’t done the math yet!

What vehicle did he buy? Charging every night vs filling his tank every few weeks doesn't compute unless he hasn't yet developed the comfort to nearly deplete the battery.

Oh, I've done the math and it is well worth the switch in my opinion in conjunction with secondary issues. And don't bother with partisan rebuttal.....

It’s a Ford, I think.

And I’m pretty sure he acknowledges that there aren’t any mpg savings here at all.

 

[texsize]

I went deisel back in 2013 with a VW dirty diesel.
My daily drive was ~150 miles. Electric would need change every day.
My Vdub needed filling ever 3 days though I made the drive 4 times twice.

Now I am retired I don’t drive more than 30 miles and not often.
Still it has it’s uses. When (if thanks to Covid-19) I head up to Oregon to visit relatives I only need stop once for fuel. I hate to to think how many stops and charging time it would take to make the same trip in an EV.

Also what about all the heat when dumping so many watts into the batteries so quickly, and overnight when you are sleeping.

 

[Scott]

My neighbor bought one of these electrical things.

I’m sure he’s enjoying his new hobby, plugging the damn thing in every night, as opposed to filling his tank up every few weeks.

And of course, he hasn’t done the math yet!

What vehicle did he buy? Charging every night vs filling his tank every few weeks doesn't compute unless he hasn't yet developed the comfort to nearly deplete the battery.

Oh, I've done the math and it is well worth the switch in my opinion in conjunction with secondary issues. And don't bother with partisan rebuttal.....

It’s a Ford, I think.

And I’m pretty sure he acknowledges that there aren’t any mpg savings here at all.

A lot of reasonable folks contemplate EVs and wisely choose to pass. All depends on your driving profile, where you live, and expectations. Some of the latest models offer 350 miles per charge, comparable or in some cases better than gasoline engine vehicles. For me, the calculation worked on several levels beyond purely financial.

 

[Scott]

I went deisel back in 2013 with a VW dirty diesel.
My daily drive was ~150 miles. Electric would need change every day.
My Vdub needed filling ever 3 days though I made the drive 4 times twice.

Now I am retired I don’t drive more than 30 miles and not often.
Still it has it’s uses. When (if thanks to Covid-19) I head up to Oregon to visit relatives I only need stop once for fuel. I hate to to think how many stops and charging time it would take to make the same trip in an EV.

Also what about all the heat when dumping so many watts into the batteries so quickly, and overnight when you are sleeping.

I bought a diesel VW Jetta in 2003, one of the last years the dirty diesel was legal for sale in California. Perfect for my weekly commute and joy rides in between. At the time diesel was considerably cheaper than unleaded, and I rediscovered the joy of a 5-speed!

For long rides you need an electric with good capacity and routing with fast-chargers. Some can fill 60% capacity in 20 minutes or so, good for roughly 200 miles in a Tesla.

Engineers have the heat thing nicely solved with reliable cooling system on demand. Vehicle charging circuitry slows down rate of charge as capacity builds exactly for the reasons you state - heat. Still, most vehicles can fully charge in as few as 4 to 6 hours - good enough for overnight or the workplace.

 

[texsize]

I went deisel back in 2013 with a VW dirty diesel.
My daily drive was ~150 miles. Electric would need change every day.
My Vdub needed filling ever 3 days though I made the drive 4 times twice.

Now I am retired I don’t drive more than 30 miles and not often.
Still it has it’s uses. When (if thanks to Covid-19) I head up to Oregon to visit relatives I only need stop once for fuel. I hate to to think how many stops and charging time it would take to make the same trip in an EV.

Also what about all the heat when dumping so many watts into the batteries so quickly, and overnight when you are sleeping.

I bought a diesel VW Jetta in 2003, one of the last years the dirty diesel was legal for sale in California. Perfect for my weekly commute and joy rides in between. At the time diesel was considerably cheaper than unleaded, and I rediscovered the joy of a 5-speed!

For long rides you need an electric with good capacity and routing with fast-chargers. Some can fill 60% capacity in 20 minutes or so, good for roughly 200 miles in a Tesla.

Engineers have the heat thing nicely solved with reliable cooling system on demand. Vehicle charging circuitry slows down rate of charge as capacity builds exactly for the reasons you state - heat. Still, most vehicles can fully charge in as few as 4 to 6 hours - good enough for overnight or the workplace.

I had an earlier Passat with the 5 speed. It was a 96 and the manual trans was fun. With the torque you could start off in 2nd if U wanted to.
Ended up with High pressure fuel pump leak. Would have cost more to fix than what it was worth. It’s a long story but I ended up donating it.

 

[Scott]

I had an earlier Passat with the 5 speed. It was a 96 and the manual trans was fun. With the torque you could start off in 2nd if U wanted to.
Ended up with High pressure fuel pump leak. Would have cost more to fix than what it was worth. It’s a long story but I ended up donating it.

VW was King of Diesels for good reason! Definitely torquey and fun to drive. When I bought mine, the service manager said the German built motor and Argentinian sourced transmission would be bullet proof. He was right, but the rest of the car had lots of problems! Kind of a bummer when repairs are more costly than what the vehicle's worth. I love cars, wish I could experience a different one every 6 months or so!

 

[texsize]

The 2013 Jetta I have has been the most fun car overall.
The Jetta was described on the TDI form as an expensive engine in a cheap car.

I have been through 8 vehicles in my long distance commute.
I would rate my Isuzu Redeo Sport as last.
I still have my GMC Safari (94). Mininvan but still on a truck chassis.
Most comfortable long haul driver I have and can load up with cages in emergency.

 

[SailBoat]

Life in the upper Midwest places long known demands on batteries as not that long ago, bring one's battery inside as night settled in was common. Especially when the temperatures traveled below 0 degrees F.

In our area, EV's tend to disappear during the winter months, much like deeply loved speciality and heritage vehicles.

A quick check found three government charging stations is a forty mile radius.

From a standpoint of miles traveled, clearly Mrs's could operate such a vehicle, but my travels, especially in the Winter months would not be a match with current technology.

 

[texsize]

Life in the upper Midwest places long known demands on batteries as not that long ago, bring one's battery inside as night settled in was common. Especially when the temperatures traveled below 0 degrees F.

In our area, EV's tend to disappear during the winter months, much like deeply loved speciality and heritage vehicles.

A quick check found three government charging stations is a forty mile radius.

From a standpoint of miles traveled, clearly Mrs's could operate such a vehicle, but my travels, especially in the Winter months would not be a match with current technology.

Even Diesel fuel has problems at those low temperatures.
I thought cars in that area had engine block heater you plug in.
Could be EV's would need to use power just to keep warm and functional.
Even then I am sure range would be reduced.

 

[SailBoat]

Life in the upper Midwest places long known demands on batteries as not that long ago, bring one's battery inside as night settled in was common. Especially when the temperatures traveled below 0 degrees F.

In our area, EV's tend to disappear during the winter months, much like deeply loved speciality and heritage vehicles.

A quick check found three government charging stations is a forty mile radius.

From a standpoint of miles traveled, clearly Mrs's could operate such a vehicle, but my travels, especially in the Winter months would not be a match with current technology.

Even Diesel fuel has problems at those low temperatures.
I thought cars in that area had engine block heater you plug in.
Could be EV's would need to use power just to keep warm and functional.
Even then I am sure range would be reduced.

Diesel's involve an additive to the fuel. Engine block heaters keep the engine oil warm. The batteries now have a 'blanket' device that keeps it warm. Both require them to plug into the 120V system. There is also a device that keeps the inside of the vehicle kind of warm. That's three wires.

Haven't seen anything for EV's 'yet.' Dealerships are 'at this point' are clueless.

 

[Scott]

The 2013 Jetta I have has been the most fun car overall.
The Jetta was described on the TDI form as an expensive engine in a cheap car.

I have been through 8 vehicles in my long distance commute.
I would rate my Isuzu Redeo Sport as last.
I still have my GMC Safari (94). Mininvan but still on a truck chassis.
Most comfortable long haul driver I have and can load up with cages in emergency.

"The Jetta was described on the TDI form as an expensive engine in a cheap car."

That's pure gold, Wes!!

 

[Scott]

Life in the upper Midwest places long known demands on batteries as not that long ago, bring one's battery inside as night settled in was common. Especially when the temperatures traveled below 0 degrees F.

In our area, EV's tend to disappear during the winter months, much like deeply loved speciality and heritage vehicles.

A quick check found three government charging stations is a forty mile radius.

From a standpoint of miles traveled, clearly Mrs's could operate such a vehicle, but my travels, especially in the Winter months would not be a match with current technology.

Life in the upper Midwest places long known demands on batteries as not that long ago, bring one's battery inside as night settled in was common. Especially when the temperatures traveled below 0 degrees F.

In our area, EV's tend to disappear during the winter months, much like deeply loved speciality and heritage vehicles.

A quick check found three government charging stations is a forty mile radius.

From a standpoint of miles traveled, clearly Mrs's could operate such a vehicle, but my travels, especially in the Winter months would not be a match with current technology.

Even Diesel fuel has problems at those low temperatures.
I thought cars in that area had engine block heater you plug in.
Could be EV's would need to use power just to keep warm and functional.
Even then I am sure range would be reduced.

Diesel's involve an additive to the fuel. Engine block heaters keep the engine oil warm. The batteries now have a 'blanket' device that keeps it warm. Both require them to plug into the 120V system. There is also a device that keeps the inside of the vehicle kind of warm. That's three wires.

Haven't seen anything for EV's 'yet.' Dealerships are 'at this point' are clueless.

Temperature extremes, particularly cold, are EV range killers! Easily reduced by half, yet they are popular in Northern Europe. (to some degree account government policy) A minor advantage is climate-controlling cabin interior while plugged into charger.
https://insideevs.com/news/324474/b...-amp-tips-for-offsetting-cold-weather-impact/