My baby laid eggs, but not hatching :'(

[Pixey]

Hi fellow avian guardians

Please may i ask some advice; i have two beautiful babies, Joy (3 years) & Hope (2 years) - i suspect the one is an indian ringneck, and the other an african ringneck (their builds are slightly different). I've uploaded a few pictures of them as attachments.

They were going "at it" for quite some time recently & they are very attached to one another - we cannot take the one out of the room without the other or get ready for Bird Armageddon & Burst Eardrums! But Joy (our male) is very clumsy and could never really successfully approach this mating business so we were not too stressed about it.

Boy, were we wrong. Hope laid a total of 4 eggs over 3 weeks ago - we were amazed and curious to see what the outcome would be of this. My partner placed a box (upon reseaching) in the cage for Hope to nest / hide away in, this is where the egg laying took place (as opposed to under the recliner couch which is a dangerous location that Hopey favored for a while).

Hope's behavior has changed 180, and we really miss our little bundle of love. She's aggressive and bites us relentlessly (even though we do our best to not react in any way shape or form). She sometimes even draws blood, which naturally makes us wary of handling her... she would come out and jump on us happily and then without warning chomp away, and promptly retreat back to the cage. It was very confusing the first few times, and we now step back when she wants to "jump on" rather.

But to the point now - the eggs are not hatching. Hope's spotted out the box a lot more the last couple of days, but obviously drawn by her newest patterns to return to the box after short periods of being out and about; ruffling feathers, taking a quick bath, or coming out to be fed by Joy.

Now we are at a loss at what to do. Do we remove the box out the cage but leave the eggs in Hope's line of sight?

Do we remove box and eggs in one go?

I am desperate for the cage to get a good clean, Hope's been very very good with doing her business outside the cage (it's pretty much open all day), but Joy is a little rascal and has less regard for keeping it "neat".

My partner is reluctant to remove the eggs as he is worried it will traumatize Hope, but my feeling is that my baby gave it her best and needs to move on now - this almost forced seclusion by sense of duty surely cannot be healthy either.

Please Avian Experts on this forum, i really would appreciate your insight and advice. These are my first pets (ever) and although i do a lot of research to try and handle them proper, i have not found a suitable response to this matter that i trust.

Thanking you for taking the time to read this and your help in advance :3:3

Pixey

 

[itzjbean]

As you have figured out, just because they mate and lay eggs doesn't mean they are fertile and will hatch. A normal incubation period for ringnecks is 23 days...so they could still potentially hatch. But things happen. Just because they mate doesn't mean he gets the job done.

The aggression you are seeing is normal and most breeders keep their pairs caged to keep everyone safe. That way no one gets bit and the birds stay completely focused on their task of rearing young. If you plan to have babies in the future, or let them try again, k highly suggest you keep them caged to avoid the aggression and biting. It's just safer for everyone involved. Birds tend to change when they have babies, they get aggressive and it's nothing personal. Instincts kick in and they are just protecting their young.

At this point, you have a couple options. You can keep waiting until the pair (or hen) loses interest (could take another week or two) and then toss the eggs out with the box. Or you could bite that bullet and take both eggs and box out. If she's still actively sitting on them, it could cause her a lot of stress to suddenly take everything away.

Breeding birds is a difficult venture to take on and not to be taken lightly. Just because your birds get it on, doesn't mean it's as simple as watch eggs hatch and ooh and ahh until they're ready to fly. Things go wrong.

Say your birds hatch babies and everything is fine, but, uh oh, mom and dad start neglecting the babies and decide they'd rather hang out in the living room on the couch. What do you do when the parents decide to pluck one of the babies or abandons them? You need to know what to do in an emergency. When it's a newborn chick on the line, you have to know what to do or you will see babies die under your care. Just this year, my hen passed away while sitting on eggs and I had to pull the eggs and incubate them. Luckily I had all my supplies ready (brooder, hand feeding formula, gram scale, syringes, cleaning solutions, etc.) just so much that can go wrong.

Something to think about.

 

[Pixey]

Thank you for replying

Leaving the eggs for now then rather as she is still sitting on them. I doubt they will hatch, its been well over 23 days, going on 27 now i think. I dont want to stress her out, she has been Very Dedicated to guarding her eggs and endless hours in the box spent. When will i know she is ready to let them go? Will she lose complete interest or just lighten up on the dedication?



We were quite excited about the possibility of raising a young one proper, and i did make some preparations albeit not all (feeder and bird porridge ready).

We have successfully rescued several abandoned baby birds over the past two years (wild, rescue & release when ready) so do not underestimate the commitment to raising a 3 week old hatchling. The success might be due to dumb luck, but we love our birds - own and visiting, and do try not to cause harm

With my own, well i naively thought they were both too young to breed (for some reason was under impression only from 5/6 years onwards, not sure where i read this). And also for a while figured both were males, but Hope never formed a ring (has a light ring seeming to form but its never darkened).

So breeding was not our intent, the events the past couple of weeks have taken us by surprise - this is how we only now identified their sexes correctly.

But I cannot split them up, Joy stresses so much, plucks himself mercilessly when he does not have a mate. So how do i stop this from happening again?

Thank you again for taking the time

 

[itzjbean]

But I cannot split them up, Joy stresses so much, plucks himself mercilessly when he does not have a mate. So how do i stop this from happening again?

Thank you again for taking the time ����

There is no need to separate them -- simply take out the nest box and that will greatly decrease chances of laying. Restrict their sunlight to 8-12 hours a day, no more than that. Is the female getting plenty of calcium? I only ask because laying eggs is hard on the hen's body and she'll need more calcium to boost her levels back up.

Any eggs laid in the cage can be simply thrown away so it doesn't have time to incubate OR if she is showing active interest, you can always boil/freeze eggs and then put them back into the cage with them, they will never hatch.

 

[EllenD]

Realize that at 27 days incubation and 4 eggs, a couple of them may still hatch. They are laid at least 2 days apart, not all at one time, so you've got a good 8-10 days difference in age of the youngest and oldest egg.

You need to candle them to determine whether any are fertile or not. Get a flashlight, and hold up each egg in front of the flashlight. If you see a pretty transparent egg with yellow fluid inside, then it's infertile. However, if the light does not pass through the egg and you see a solid mass or any veins in the egg (at this point they should be pretty solid and dark) then they are fertile. That way you'll know.

Hand-raising baby chicks is quite difficult. If you are wanting to hand-raise the babies, they must each be pulled when they turn 2-3 weeks old, no older, and from 2 weeks old to 5 weeks old you are feeding them each 5-6 times per day, and that includes all throughout the night; only at 5 weeks old can they go overnight for 6 hours without eating. So you have to set an alarm to go off every 2-3 hours for the weeks 2 and 3, and every 3-4 hours during week 4. At week 5 they can overnight for 6 hours, but you must still be feeding them 4-5 times each day, then slowly decreasing, as you want to "Abundance-Wean" them, which means slowly and gradually allowing them to reduce the number of formula feedings and amount of formula per feeding, as they themselves decide to eat more and more solid food. You never, ever want to "Force-Wean" them, which means you reduce formula feedings and amounts and force them to eat solid food or nothing at all. This creates life-long neurological issues, behavioral issues, and serious health problems.

Also, you must have a either a real, proper Brooder that you buy, or you must make a homemade Brooder that you can control the temperature of and that has an ambient thermometer inside of it. They must be kept at an ambient temperature of around 95 degrees until all of their down comes in full (usually weeks 2-3), and then between 80-85 degrees until all of their mature, outer feathers come completely in (usually weeks 4-7). Otherwise they will not be able to properly digest their formula, it will spoil inside of them, and they will develop a serious fungal infection throughout their GI Tracts.

Also, you must ALWAYS use a candy/cooking thermometer to make sure that any and all formula you feed them is between 104 degrees F and 110 degrees F!!! This is not optional at all, don't even risk not doing this. Even 1 degree too cool and they will develop fungal infections, slow-crop, or crop-stasis and infections (and usually hesitate to eat the proper amount that they need). Even 1 degree too hot and it will cause their crops to burn, which will cause an open wound and infection inside of their crops, which requires surgery to repair. So you must keep the candy/cooking thermometer in the formula the entire time that you are feeding them to ensure that the temperature is between 104-110 degrees F at all times. And never microwave already-mixed formula, as it develops "hot pockets" throughout it that will burn their crops. Always microwave the water and then add it to the formula powder, and then mix extremely well with a whisk, and then check the temperature throughout the formula before feeding. If the temperature of the formula drops while you're feeding the babies then you must reheat the formula again and start over.

And always come here and ask any and all questions, don't make guesses or take chances with anything, as one little slip-up and the babies will die. You must always feed them at their pace with the oral syringe, using their feeding-response as your rhythm to feed them too. You must always insert the tip of the oral syringe into the left side of their beak (THEIR LEFT SIDE if they are facing you), go OVER their tongue, and aim the syringe tip across towards the right side of the back of their throat (THEIR RIGHT SIDE if they are facing you), as the crop entrance is located on the right side of the back of their throat (THEIR RIGHT if they are facing you). When their feeding-response stops, you stop...these are the best methods to avoid aspirating any formula into their lungs, which usually will kill a young baby almost instantly.

 

[Pixey]

Wow thats a LOT of information.

And from reading all that, i am amazed that my rescue birds made it - dumb luck after all then?

I dont necessarily want to breed, i cannot accommodate more than two, three birds at most. And the thought of potentially sending babies to homes where they may not be looked after proper does not sit right with me.

We were curious however about the outcome of these eggs (being the first time something like this happened) and i was ready to fight tooth and nail to keep at least one of the chicks should the eggs have hatched.

But my concern now turned to Hope and what to do with these eggs that are not hatching and keeping her tied to the box regardless.

Will wait until she abandons post before removing. And should one of the eggs hatch, i am grateful to have a detailed guide on how to take care of the little one - will definitely keep you posted should a little miracle happen in the next couple of days ��

 

[Jottlebot]

She will get tired of them and abandon them. I wouldn't do anything unless she stops eating or loses condition. She might still be interested because she knows there are babies in at least some of them. You've let her incubate them for a long time now, if you take them away she may want to lay and incubate again, which is very tiring. It's likely that they're not fertile as it was their first go though.

I think they are both IRNs, not an ARN. They're lovely birds!

As you don't want to breed then I'd follow the advice above to try and prevent mating in the future because you don't want to end up with chicks you don't have room for, or lose them if you have to hand feed or the parents lose them because they don't know how to raise them. It also opens your female up to risks she wouldn't face if she never laid.

 

[Pixey]

Thank you; really appreciate the advice. I am too nervous to remove the eggs now as i dont want her to get stressed out.

Besides, she's completely anti-social and behaving like we just brought her home yesterday, and no way will i be able to get to the box without traumatizing her anyway, - whenever we go close to the cage she runs to the box opening and looks back up at us accusingly. Sticking hands in while Hope's in the cage is an obvious no-no.

We placed the box in the cage to keep her out from underneath the couch, where she easily spent hours *trying* to nest. I also cannot keep them caged for long periods of time - the cage is Hope's territory more than Joy's. Joy detests being in the cage, and screams like a mad hatter :headwall: until we let him out - then he'll happily sit ON the cage for most of the day, (but close that door and it's chaos sooner than later).

Tried for a bit to get Joy accustomed to another cage (own cage) but literally cannot separate these two, Joy becomes hysterical the moment Hope makes a peep and Joy cannot reach Hope. Joy is Hope's little shadow. Hope also gets anxious when Joy is not in line of sight - the bond between these two is something incredible :heart: - is this normal?


So not sure how i am going to keep this from happening again, and now not looking forward to next year's seasonal bird madness.

 

[EllenD]

Don't worry about making her anxious, they actually are much less obsessive and possessive of both their eggs and their babies than most people think...that entire "you can't touch the babies or the eggs, or the parents will abandon them due to your scent" is completely a myth, there is not one bit of truth to it at all.

Just let her sit on the eggs until she stops doing it anymore. As soon as she gets bored with them and she stops sitting on them, then immediately throw the eggs away and remove the nest-box right away. And if she happens to lay any more eggs after you have already removed the nest-box, do not put it back in the cage. Instead, remove each egg immediately, boil it for 15 minutes, then put it back in the bottom of the cage. Do this with each egg that she lays, and again allow her to get bored with them, and when she stops laying on them then throw them out. Usually that will be the end of the cycle, as long as you don't put the nest-box back in again, as the nest-box can actually trigger their hormones again and start the whole thing over again. If they are forced to lay any remaining eggs in the bottom of the cage without any nesting materials, they realize quickly that the environment is not adequate for safely raising babies, and their hormones tend to shut-off. But if you continue to provide a safe and comforting environment (small, dark, warm places and nesting materials) that are conducive to laying eggs and raising chicks, their hormones tend to keep going and going. So the idea is to make her cage non-friendly to eggs and babies.

 

[MonicaMc]

Since you've gotten a bunch of great advice, just wanted to chime in that they are both IRN's as mentioned.

ARN mutations are quite uncommon within captivity. I also don't see any indication of either one being an ARN. What you are seeing could simply be a difference due to genetics or even genders, nothing more.