Mr. Towel

[catfish]

Someone mentioned Mr. Towel yesterday in a post. It was about using a towel to stop biting. I would like more info. if possible.

 

[thekarens]

Hi, I'm not site which post you saw, but if you use the search tool for this site you'll find more information about how to stop biting.

 

[MonicaMc]

Sounds like a flooding/dominance thing and not recommended.

 

[Birdman666]

That's probably one of my posts.

And it's not a dominance issue per say, as it is a tool for teaching a bird there are also consequences for misbehaving...

It's about teaching an aggressive bird that if he tries that stuff, you're not going to just sit there and get bit. Or a parrot that is prone to biting to get out of doing something he needs to do, and doesn't want to. (i.e. come down from there, take your bath [that would be my CAG], step up nice without drawing blood...) The message is I am not going to hurt you, but I am also not going to let you hurt me. And you are going to do this. Easy way, step up. Hard way, meet my friend, Mr. Towel.

My CAG for example, will poof up, and do his "death grip on the perch, and if you try to get me off here, I will bite the crap out of you" routine...

This bird gets toweled for grooming purposes, and he knows that I don't put up with that nonsense AT ALL. When he pulls that stuff, I go get a towel, SHOW IT TO HIM... and simply explain that he needs to step up nice, OR HE MEETS MR. TOWEL. And since he knows I will towel him, he makes the correct choice every single time... steps up nice without biting.

I only had to towel him once, and that was about TEN years ago. Effective?! I'd say so... and IT DOES NOT HURT HIM!

I do the same thing with the screaming stuff. Every once in awhile my RFM will attention scream. All I have to do anymore, having done the basic screaming protocols with her when she was little, is take out the cage cover, and throw it on the floor next to her cage... She immediately quiets down.

Some folks disagree with this. Again, the point here is to praise the bird for the GOOD behavior EVERY SINGLE TIME he makes the right decision... not to towel them for no reason...

It is not about dominance, it is basic obedience training.

Rubbing a dog's nose in dog doo isn't pleasant for the dog either, but that is how you housebreak them... When he goes outside to do his business, you praise him and reward him. THAT IS STILL positive reinforcement... in my book. YOU DON'T REINFORCE THE BAD BEHAVIOR. YOU REINFORCE THE GOOD ONES... Same thing here.

This assumes you know how to safely towel a bird, without hurting him, so that he cannot bite you.

 

[thekarens]

I agreed with you until you brought up the dog. Rubbing a dogs nose in it does nothing and means nothing. They have no clue what you're doing and why you're doing that. You have to catch them when they are messing in the house, tell them no at that time and take them outside.

 

[BruceV]

This assumes you know how to safely towel a bird, without hurting him, so that he cannot bite you.

That's the problem that a lot of us probably have. We don't know how. I know I sure don't. Anyplace we can find an instructional video or something?

 

[Birdman666]

Just Google the search term toweling a parrot...

There are various UTube videos on how to do this with both tame, and in some instances NOT TAME AT ALL MACAWS...

 

[MonicaMc]

Rubbing a dog's nose in his own poo may only teach him not to crap when you are around or to crap in areas that you can't see as well.


It's not positive reinforcement training when the alternative is punishment. It's not positive reinforcement training when a bird is coerced to cooperate "or else". If the grey didn't cooperate, he would be toweled. Instead of stepping up because he wants to, he is instead taught to choose the lesser of two evils - the hand or the towel? If the macaw didn't quiet down, she'd be covered.



I don't agree with that kind of training.

 

[Birdman666]

It's not positive reinforcement training when the alternative is punishment. It's not positive reinforcement training when a bird is coerced to cooperate "or else". If the grey didn't cooperate, he would be toweled. Instead of stepping up because he wants to, he is instead taught to choose the lesser of two evils - the hand or the towel? If the macaw didn't quiet down, she'd be covered.

I don't agree with that kind of training.

We can agree to disagree on this issue. I don't have a problem with that.

Bottom line for me, he wouldn't bathe unless I forced him to do it, and he needs to bathe... PERIOD! To me, this is the LEAST STRESSFUL way to get this done for both of us.

Letting him run around the cage, biting, getting sprayed while he tries to avoid it, etc. doesn't exactly help the bond either!

Better to re-inforce biting, possibly even to the point of inflicting injury, to get your way?! Cuz if he wins the argument by biting you, you have just taught the bird to bite you, and chances are he will continue to do it until you put a stop to it!

He isn't neurotic. He doesn't pluck. He doesn't bite. He does climb down his cage, waddle over to me, beg to be picked up, give kisses, and have his head scratched... so if I've damaged the bond between us, it doesn't show up in his behavior.

The overall emphasis is still on praising the positive. YES you cover them when they scream. Is that punishment?! I guess. BUT THE POINT IS TO PRAISE THE GOOD BEHAVIOR AND REINFORCE THAT. TEACH THEM TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHAT IS PERMITTED, AND WHAT IS NEVER PERMITTED... BITING IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED. HOW ELSE DO YOU TEACH THEM THAT?! AND IS IT LESS INTRUSIVE AND/OR MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MY METHOD?! IF SO, TEACH ME...

In my house there are rules.

There are rules for how adults behave, how children behave, and how animals behaved. Those rules are enforced, with love, to keep everyone safe, and to insure that we all mind our manners...

I, personally, believe it is necessary.

If you do not, then don't do it.

 

[MikeyTN]

Each individual have their own training method. You may use one and think the other one shouldn't be used or suit you but it doesn't make the other training any less useful. When it reach this point it is best to agree to disagree. Thanks!!!

 

[MonicaMc]

We can agree to disagree on this issue. I don't have a problem with that.

I agree, we will probably have to agree to disagree... but my thoughts...

Bottom line for me, he wouldn't bathe unless I forced him to do it, and he needs to bathe... PERIOD! To me, this is the LEAST STRESSFUL way to get this done for both of us.

Why not find a method of bathing that he enjoys? Why not make bathing a fun time?

Letting him run around the cage, biting, getting sprayed while he tries to avoid it, etc. doesn't exactly help the bond either!

There are other methods to bathing than spraying them.

Better to re-inforce biting, possibly even to the point of inflicting injury, to get your way?! Cuz if he wins the argument by biting you, you have just taught the bird to bite you, and chances are he will continue to do it until you put a stop to it!

I agree, it's best to avoid the bite, but not in that manner. Better to learn to read the bird's body language and find ways to have a bird enjoy doing the behaviors you want the bird to do - i.e. not biting and actually bathing.

He isn't neurotic. He doesn't pluck. He doesn't bite. He does climb down his cage, waddle over to me, beg to be picked up, give kisses, and have his head scratched... so if I've damaged the bond between us, it doesn't show up in his behavior.

It's not about whether or not your training techniques work, because obviously it does... it does for you. However, why not train in a way that doesn't scare the bird? Or that doesn't force them to do something they don't want to? Instead, teach them to enjoy it!

The overall emphasis is still on praising the positive. YES you cover them when they scream. Is that punishment?! I guess. BUT THE POINT IS TO PRAISE THE GOOD BEHAVIOR AND REINFORCE THAT. TEACH THEM TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN THE TWO WHAT IS PERMITTED, AND WHAT IS NEVER PERMITTED... BITING IS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD NOT BE PERMITTED. HOW ELSE DO YOU TEACH THEM THAT?! AND IS IT LESS INTRUSIVE AND/OR MORE EFFECTIVE THAN MY METHOD?! IF SO, TEACH ME...

As I see positive reinforcement, it's not about *making* a bird do something because it *has* to. It's about giving birds choices, and if they choose to not do what you want *IT'S OK!*. You can try again later, or find the reward/reinforcement that will change the birds mind.

It's about communication - which goes both ways!

Why is the bird biting?

1. Is the bird biting from fear?
   • If from fear, then you can do one of two things. The most common response is to ladder the bird and praise them each time they step up.... or put them into a towel so they can't bite. This may lead to a bird afraid of humans because the very thing they fear is constantly making them very fearful. It may also result in a bird that simply "gives up" because it has no choice in the matter. They don't know of anything else they can do. Or, the bird may come to enjoy interacting with you.
   • Or using positive reinforcement - gain the birds trust. Teach the bird that each time you come around that he or she will get something good! The bird soon looks forward to you coming around and may become eager for your attention. The bird learns you aren't scary and can be trusted. Once this is understood, the bird can easily be taught other behaviors. This can be done by giving the bird a treat every time you walk by the cage but allowing the bird room to hide if need be. It's backing off when,or preferably before, the bird becomes stressed. The idea is to not stress the bird out and to try and make each experience with the bird a positive one.
2. Is the bird biting through curiosity?
   • Many people punish birds for accidentally nipping or even biting when they are exploring and using their beaks. This may teach the bird not only to *not* chew on humans, but it may also teach them to not chew on toys. You may end up with a bored bird because the bird was taught not to explore using their beaks.
   • Or an alternative... making sure the bird has toys, treats and other acceptable items to chew on while with you. Redirect their attention to toys and praise them for playing with toys whenever they actually do. This may result in a very curious bird not afraid of new things because new things might be fun!
3. Is the bird biting because it's very excited?
   • You could punish your bird for being overly excited (playing with toys? Just in a hyper mood?) which may or may not have detrimental effects
   • Or interact with the bird in a hands off manner... or perhaps teach the bird to do whatever it is that they are doing calmly.
4. Is the bird biting because it's hormonal?
   • I see a lot of people blaming biting is because the bird is hormonal... but is the bird really hormonal? Is the bird trying to breed and reproduce? If it's a breeding pair that you plan on them raising chicks, you should leave them alone! If it's a pet, well, you could punish the behavior and possibly get no where because of a bird is biting because they are hormonal, you are only punishing them for biting, but not fixing the cause of why they are biting
   • If it's a pet bird, then ideally, the hormonal behavior should be discouraged (IMO). We can't physically mate with our birds, we can't produce babies with them... yes, being hormonal is a natural thing, however we often set our homes up in such a way that birds may be hormonal year round! Hens may become chronic egg layers, some birds may regurgitate too much, some may have prolapses. This isn't normal. Allowing a bird to be hormonal may also cause aggression towards owners, or aggression towards other people. I feel it is best to remove the triggers to hormones and socialize the bird, thus reducing behaviorial problems.
5. Is the bird biting when other people are around?
   • You could cage the bird up every time a visitor comes or punish them for the behavior...
   • Or once again - socializing the bird. This can be linked back to the hormones part. Birds are *very* social creatures out in the wild, yet in our homes we often encourage the opposite, even if unintentionally. Many people often don't take their birds out anywhere, or maybe they don't have many guests at their home - or at least not guests willing to work with birds. If a bird is trained and socialized, then they would look forward to company or new people.

Rather than trying to get a parrot to stop biting, people should instead avoid getting bitten through learning how to communicate with their birds and earning their trust.

If you stick your hand into a budgie's cage and it's flying around in panic, then you capture the bird and make it do step ups, of course the bird is going to try and avoid you and will bite!

If on the other hand you offer the bird treats or food in a calm manner and earn the birds trust, the bird is less likely to bite out of fear and more possibly from curiosities sake, if at all. You don't chase the bird, you allow the bird to come to you.


This can also work for medium and large parrots, although if they bite, then it may help to figure out a way to deliver treats in a manner that will allow you to not get bitten... i.e. offering the reward on a spoon or in a cup. Earn their trust and teach them to look forward to your attention without having to force them to do anything.


I find this a great article on how to work with fearful birds and it uses positive reinforcement.
Working with Fearful Parrots: A Study in Videos | Learning Parrots




Personally, I'd love to see how your grey's behavior may change if he is worked with differently. Will he become willing to step up without being coerced? Can he learn to enjoy bathing?

 

[thekarens]

As usual people always think their ways are better ways when it comes to pets and children. I don't know why some can't agree to disagree.

Sometimes children have to be forced to do things they don't want to for their own good and the same applies to pets.

 

[Birdman666]

I wasn't angry.

I was playing "Devil's Advocate" looking for someone from the "other camp" to set out their methods, so that the reader could make an informed decision as to what they wanted to try.

This wasn't an attack on you. But I will attack the methodology - including my own - if I think it doesn't work, or it's bad advice.

As I have said many times, there is no ONE right answer.

But this is one that people have repeatedly argued against, that I know is effective, without offering a very effective alternative training method.

And again, if I destroyed the bond, with this training, then why does my bird actively seek me out, step up to me, and interact with me the way that he does?

I believe it's because he knows he is loved... and respected.

Which goes against the grain of the often quoted, but difficult to prove, theory that ANY TIME you force a bird to do something it doesn't want to do, YOU DESTROY trust...

I just don't happen to share that opinion, and will express that...

I don't happen to agree with "height dominance" either.

Or the prohibition against allowing amazons on your shoulder...

I was trying to Coax the other side out of you...

TELL ME WHY YOU FEEL THAT WAY...

Demonstrate it. What is this based on? That's how we all learn.

And I think opposing viewpoints are good... it actually strengthens and clarifies the issues.

If we all agreed with conventional wisdom all the time, then the world would still be flat!!!

AND TO DATE, IN THE 10+ YEARS I HAVE HAD HIM, MY CAG HAS ALWAYS HAD AN AVERSION TO WATER... NO MATTER WHAT I TRIED TO DO.

MISTING HIM SENDS HIM IN THE FULL ON DIVE OFF THE CAGE AND HIDE UNDER IT PANIC.
GIVE HIM A BIRD BATH, AND HE MIGHT DRINK FROM IT IF HE'S THIRSTY, OTHERWISE HE WILL JUST TRY TO TIP IT OVER, TO PREVENT ACTUALLY COMING IN CONTACT WITH WATER...
SHOWERS... HE DOES NOT GO WILLINGLY, BUT HE GOES...
MOST OF THE TIME HE STEPS UP.
I STILL OCCASIONALLY HAVE TO SHOW HIM THE TOWEL.
I HAVEN'T ACTUALLY HAD TO USE IT ON HIM IN YEARS.

AND NO, THE BIRD IS BITING BECAUSE HE DOESN'T WANT TO TAKE A BATH... "I DON'T WANNA! I DON'T WANNA! I DON'T WANNA!"

I DIDN'T SEE THAT ONE MENTIONED ON YOUR LIST... BUT THEY DO IT ALL THE TIME.

"I DON'T FEEL LIKE IT. MAKE ME!"

"Okay then. I will." This is a tame bird. He is not afraid of humans. We have a human/bird bonded relationship already. This is "toddler tantrum."

I personally do not believe permissive parenting works with large parrots.

And it's not okay for you to bite me if you don't want to do something. It's not okay to only take baths if, and when, you feel like it. It's not okay to throw tantrums...

Making them behave is not abusive.

I have never once hit a bird, or done anything to hurt it...

 

[JerseyWendy]

I absolutely enjoy reading a healthy debate, however, I prefer reading it rather than participating in it. :54:

This thread has my nails down to the quick. :52:

 

[MonicaMc]

I forget to mention that positive reinforcement / applied behavior analysis is based on the science of behavior.


Flooding/dominance/coercion is often based off of being the "boss" or "alpha". For some reason, this kind of training seems to stem from the theory that wolves have an "alpha" leader. We all know that parrots aren't dogs, and I wont even talk about how I feel on that theory...

Some also believe that parrots should be treated like children... and that they understand punishment.... well, as much as parrots can learn to mimic us, and some actually learn to communicate, they often do not understand human behaviors. They are not little kids. Parrots grow up. They are not predators - they are prey. They learn differently.

Living With Parrots Cage Free: My Bird Knows When She Is Bad, Right?? !! (Hmmm)...

 

[Birdman666]

I rehabbed approximately 350 large parrots. Most of them biters.

They did not bite me. They stopped biting me almost immediately. They left my house with manners, and went on to be good pets...

If left to their own devices, they will do as they bloody well please...

If taught to behave, they will behave.

NO, they are not children, but every single study I am aware of shows us that the IQ of a parrot is about the same as the IQ of a 3-5 year old child...

They can be taught, the same way a child can be taught.

Dr. Pepperburg proved that AND THEN SOME with Alex!!!

And this was a "normal" random, pet store CAG. If Alex had been left to his own devices, would he ever had the ability to do what he did? He did that because HE WAS TAUGHT!!!

WE ARE TEACHING OUR BIRDS HERE... THAT IS WHAT I BELIEVE... TAKE ON THE ROLE OF THE PARENT BIRD AND TEACH...

 

[MikeyTN]

This thread is closed!!! Again folks, please do be civil in here. I've said earlier already, if you can't agree then agree to disagree!!! Thanks!

 

[mtdoramike]

As usual people always think their ways are better ways when it comes to pets and children. I don't know why some can't agree to disagree.

Sometimes children have to be forced to do things they don't want to for their own good and the same applies to pets.

So True, So true. The problem with children today is there is no repercussions to their actions and birds are like children in so many ways. My birds knew when they got to be to noisy and after I asked them to quiet down and they didn't, I would get the misting bottle and give them a spritz and if that didn't do the trick, then I would grab mister sheet and usually once they got sight of mister sheet, they realized that a time out was soon coming so that would usually do the trick, if not then a time out for them.

I rarely ever towel my birds and the only times that I have was when we would be preparing to leave for a few days and I needed to drop them off at the pet sitters and usually one or the other would be defiant (like children do) and stand their ground like I'M NOT GOING. Then out of time constraints, they get toweled. But usually if shown the towel, they wise and realize I mean business.

 

[mtdoramike]

As usual people always think their ways are better ways when it comes to pets and children. I don't know why some can't agree to disagree.

Sometimes children have to be forced to do things they don't want to for their own good and the same applies to pets.

So True, So true. The problem with children today is there is no repercussions to their actions and birds are like children in so many ways. My birds knew when they got to be to noisy and after I asked them to quiet down and they didn't, I would get the misting bottle and give them a spritz and if that didn't do the trick, then I would grab mister sheet and usually once they got sight of mister sheet, they realized that a time out was soon coming so that would usually do the trick, if not then a time out for them.

I rarely ever towel my birds and the only times that I have was when we would be preparing to leave for a few days and I needed to drop them off at the pet sitters and usually one or the other would be defiant (like children do) and stand their ground like I'M NOT GOING. Then out of time constraints, they get toweled. But usually if shown the towel, they wise and realize I mean business.

To me, people tend to put to much science into child raising as well as pet raising. Sometimes a good old fashioned spanking is in order