Mr. Bitey Bird

[ScooterMcTavish]

Hey All,

As you know, Monty is a young guy, and as a new parrot-slave, I'm still trying to understand what the bird is telling me.

Last night Monty was very bitey. Part of it was play and (what looked to be) Amazon overload, but he also seems to be a generally temperamental bird.

For example, if someone inadvertently touches him when he does not expect it (or doesn't want to be touched), he starts to growl, and may lunge. I have been trying to desensitize him to having his wings touched and placing him on his back (for harness training) and this usually gets me a few good warning chomps (not always, but often - growling is guaranteed 100%). Heck, if he's comfortable on his stand or with someone, he has no issues in growling and/or lunging at someone walking by.

When he does bite hard (versus "play biting" or warning me he needs to go poop), I grab him around his wings (which he does not like - growl, growl, bite), tell him "No biting" very sternly, then put him in has cage for a time out (usually around 5-10 minutes). We can tell he's ready to come back out when he starts calling "Hello" for someone to come get him. He's usually much better after this.

Not sure if this is related or not, but lately, he's decided the top of my head is a great perch.

Also not sure if this is related, but when he gets his time out, he seems "hangry" and usually attacks his food when put away.

My questions are:
- Is this typical "young amazon" behaviour?
- Can this behaviour be conditioned or trained out of the parrot?
- What is a "normal" level of aggression in an Amazon?
- Is my "time out" strategy good, or should I try something else?

I've read a number of articles (debated) regarding parrot dominance, and am familiar with aggressive dominance in dogs. Monty's behavior does remind me of a dog in some ways (testing everyone to see what he can get away with), and he does treat everyone differently depending on (what look like) how he views their place in the family hierarchy.

Welcome the feedback of other's experiences with their Amazons, and if Monty is displaying typical/atypical/trainable behaviours.

And of course, when he presses his beak against your cheek, fluffs up, and expects scritches, he is as sweet as sweet can be.

 

[Amanda_Bennett]

Zilla is a 30 year old Orange Wing Amazon who growls all the time, even when she is asking to come out/step up, it's just a part of her personality I guess. She also nips and pushes my fingers away when she doesn't want to be handled or touched. She lunges & growls if she REALLY REALLY doesn't want to step up or be touched.

I think part of what you're describing is just a part of his personality (he is an Amazon) and part can be worked out as you go along.

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

Thanks Amanda,

Yes, part does seem to fit the Amazon description, but as I remember from training dogs, the earlier you start and the more consistent you are, the better it is.

I think sometimes I have to quit seeing dog behaviours in my fid. And like me, he probably has good days when he wants to be with everyone, and bad days where he just wants to have his space. I'm good with that.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

Growl??? Geez Amy is going on 30 and has never growled at me..just Smokey my TAG did.

And I have found that if I try to touch her back/wings without her knowing,she will try and chomp on me.


Jim

 

[JerseyWendy]

I'm sorry, I'm just now seeing this.

The behavior you are describing is indeed VERY typical of a young, MALE DHA (at least in my experience), and they can be trying times.

My Sam is still VERY vocal. He always seems to be growling at something. No, seriously, he is. He can't wait to come out first thing in the morning, and he's right there by the door, one foot up...growling! LOL.

* Time-outs work GREAT (for me AND Sam). :54:
* Amazons are quite stubborn (and vocal)
* Amazons use their beak (some more than others)
* Amazons have an opinion about anything and everything. :30:
* They do NOT like to be 'surprised touched'. I'm serious here. Even I will get nailed if I touch Sam without him knowing what I'm about to do.

Monty loves all of you. No doubt in my mind. But he also is quite aware of who can deal with him, and who can't. They do a whole lotta bluffing (growling.....GRRRRR, yes, I already said that, just making sure I'm getting that across, LOL)

Parrots are NOTHING like dogs, sorry. You may have read articles that display 'similar' behavior, but you can never compare the two. DHA are not easy, but they are worth every single minute you put into training them, showing them how to behave, teaching them how to be kind, letting them know how much beak pressure is acceptable. They learn, and they learn very quickly at this young age, especially when you are persistent.

Yes, Monty will continue to test you. Not only throughout his juvenile age, but much more so during his puberty, and even MUCH more during his early adolescence. :21:

 

[mh434]

My $.02' worth? Yep, 'Zons can definitely be moody & cranky!!! Be thankful Monty gives you warnings - not all of them do, before they try to remove parts of you! The chomping when touched by surprise is purely instinctive - remember, they're basically prey species, and a violent response to an unexpected touch is hardwired into them as a self-preservation response. I ALWAYS let my birds know when I'm about to touch them - you only need to let them see your hand first, so they're aware of your approach.

'Zons will test you, that's for sure. My YNA feels he's the alpha bird of the whole house, and lets the rest of the flock know it. He never goes after them, but let one of them fly too close to his cage, and watch out!

I don't know how old Monty is, but some of this sounds like the onset of 'Zon hormonal responses. My 12-year-old Sammy goes through periods of days to as much as a week when he's angry, ornery, and downright aggressive toward everyone, including me.

It eventually passes, and he gets downright sucky again (that's where he is right now). Interestingly, the "cranky phases" don't necessarily coincide with his being amorous (with his toys, perches, sticks, or whatever he can straddle!), as these often happen during his "sucky phases". Last night he spend at least an hour vigorously pleasuring one of his toys, honking like a goose (we couldn't even hear the TV!), and yet he's as friendly as can be during the rest of the day.

Other times, though, when he's at that stage, you don't go near him for several days, unless you enjoy spending time at the emergency room. You just have to watch for the aggressive signs, and remember the old adage "Amazons NEVER bluff!"

 

[JerseyWendy]

.... "Amazons NEVER bluff!"

I fully agree with all but the above. Both my Amazons bluff. My hen much more so than my male. If I 'listened' to her body language all the time, I'd be handling her a lot more cautiously than I actually do. She's never bitten any of us, but boy has she growled and thrown hissy fits.

My male (AND my previous Magna male) bluffed as well. It's sometimes difficult to tell whether the tail's fanning, the eyeballs are spiraling, and the wings are all out because he's overly happy, 'bluffing', OR means 'business'. :54: But it's always fairly easy to tell once my hand gets close enough.

 

[Amanda_Bennett]

.... "Amazons NEVER bluff!"

I fully agree with all but the above. Both my Amazons bluff. My hen much more so than my male. If I 'listened' to her body language all the time, I'd be handling her a lot more cautiously than I actually do. She's never bitten any of us, but boy has she growled and thrown hissy fits.

My male (AND my previous Magna male) bluffed as well. It's sometimes difficult to tell whether the tail's fanning, the eyeballs are spiraling, and the wings are all out because he's overly happy, 'bluffing', OR means 'business'. :54: But it's always fairly easy to tell once my hand gets close enough.

I would also have to disagree. Zilla bluffs all the time! If I "listened" to her I would hardly ever handle her. She's always growling, hissing and flaring her tail, pinning her eyes at me, and she's never bit me, never hurt me, but her body language and "sounds" sure make it seem like that's what she wants to do!

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

Great feedback guys.

To note, Monty is only 9 months old so I'm assuming this isn't hormones. However, if anyone has seen s hormonal bird at this age, let me know.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Nope, this is absolutely NOT hormonal driven. He's much too young for that.

 

[Ginnybird]

Ginny is 8 months old. She went through a phase earlier where her customary gentle beaking of my fingers just ramped up into biting. It very much felt like she was just enjoying the fascinating tactile sensation of flesh on bone in her beak, and then more often decided to give her strengthening beak muscles, and/or my boundaries, a test or workout!

She left that behavior behind a while ago but lately will get overexcited by our flight harness work. We've been going very slow with it -- to the point where I sometimes wonder if it'll ever happen -- because whenever she growls I don't push further, I usually step back. Since she's been getting overexcited when putting her head through the neck ring for a treat, and has gotten bitey over it once, I've just sidestepped a bit again. Basically we were learning "pick it up" and "drop it" with a plastic ring, and then with the clicker itself because she likes to grab it, and it has helped with the latter a lot. I decided to start doing it with the harness itself. My hope is this will help steer her away from grabbing the harness itself, and also calm her down in manipulating it or having it near her. So I hold it up to her and say "pick it up," which she does, and "drop it," which she does... usually.

Essentially, I think the sight of the harness, and both the rewards and annoyances it implies, is starting to set her off, and I want to relax that reaction from her. Whenever that's the case I back off to something more mellow, or something else altogether for a while.

Do you think something like this might help?

 

[JerseyWendy]

Kay, just a suggestion, perhaps it'll help with Ginny: Do you do training sessions in the same area? If so, I'd try taking her to a place in your home that she is not overly familiar with. Sometimes a change in scenery is enough to make them cooperate fully.

If you always react to her growling by backing off, she will learn rather quickly she will get her way. :54:

 

[Ginnybird]

Kay, just a suggestion, perhaps it'll help with Ginny: Do you do training sessions in the same area? If so, I'd try taking her to a place in your home that she is not overly familiar with. Sometimes a change in scenery is enough to make them cooperate fully.

If you always react to her growling by backing off, she will learn rather quickly she will get her way. :54:

I've used a couple places for training, but have always trained harness in one spot. I can try switching that up, thanks.

However, I'm not keen on forcing her into the harness while she's growling and biting. I've found that if I'm patient, I can get to a place of trust without force in other things: it's worked with pushing against her body to simulate harness buckle tightening, and lifting her wings (which she was very growly about me doing at first).

Are you suggesting forcing it despite her warnings?

 

[JerseyWendy]

Oh heavens no, I never force my fids to do anything they're not ready for! As
I've said earlier, both my zons are VERY vocal, however, neither are 'bitey' as you describe with Ginny.

I got my Sam into a harness. Yes, he growled and complained (didn't break the skin while doing it). Immediately after the harness was on I took him outside (reward + he instantly forgot he was wearing it). You see, it's not that he doesn't like wearing the harness, but he's not overly happy about the process getting it on.

 

[Ginnybird]

Well, that does sound forced to me, despite growling, even if there was no bite that broke the skin -- but happily he forgot about it. (Or am I missing something?) Ginny hasn't broken my skin. But I'd prefer for her not to feel she needs to do so to get her point across.

What happened the next time you put the harness on him? More resistance or less?

Because if there's a lot of stress getting it on, it would seem easy for the bird to see it again, the next time, and react more aggressively, not less. And that's the big thing I'm trying to avoid.

 

[JerseyWendy]

You are certainly entitled to see this any way you wish. My Sam trusts me 100%. In fact, he can't get enough of me. He's fully flighted and follows me around the house.

We know each other quite well. My 17-year old hen YN was only introduced to a harness last year. She, too, growled, but that didn't stop me from putting it on her. And she's THE biggest cuddler out of my entire flock - with every single family member.

The second, third, fourth, etc time Sam wore the harness it became easier and easier. I now place him on the back of a chair, by the door leading outside. He knows where he's going next when he's on that chair. He even flies to that chair on sunny days, waiting to put the harness on. But guess what? He's QUITE vocal as I'm putting it on. Every.Single.Time.

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

Enjoying the discussion guys.

Ginny, I think I struggle the same way - I don't want to feel I'm forcing and violating trust, yet if the bird gets what it wants 100% of the time, it never learns that sometimes good things (outside on harness) come from less good things (putting on harness).

Wendy, appreciate your approach on this. Reminds me a bit of kids sometimes. When toddlers, they can cry kicking and screaming all the way to somewhere where they think they don't want to go, then have the most fun they've ever had. Next time, they don't kick and scream.

I think it may be valuable for me to view this as "short term pain for long term gain" for both me and Monty. What you highlight is there needs to be the reward at the end for him, consistently.

Example, although he may growl and bite putting on the harness, if he gets to go outside every time the harness goes on, he'll eventually want to put the harness on versus growling and biting.

I guess the trick here is not to push the bird to such a point as he gets punished everytime he sees the harness, versus being rewarded. Like toddlers.

 

[JerseyWendy]

LMAO @ the toddler comparison. YUP, just like that!

Just remember, my Sam growls and lunges sometimes when 'merely' playing with his toys.... He's my 'little' drama queen. HAHAHAHA!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oVAT9lRdnU"]Sam playing wildly - YouTube[/ame]

IMO there's a difference between forcing him to do something VS convincing him to do something.... :21:

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yWJ33emL-c"]Sam playing one - YouTube[/ame]

 

[Anansi]

Yeah, Wendy. I know what you mean. The way I view it, some of this falls into the realm of knowing your bird. Once you understand your bird to a certain extent, you'll just know in your bones if you're pushing too far... and crossing the line into forcing an issue. Sometimes they're just fussing a bit, and other times they're telling you, "I REALLY don't feel like doing this."

It's up to us to observe and listen.

 

[ScooterMcTavish]

And of course, this gives me an opportunity to show off Monty's sweet side, and how nice his yellow is growing in.

Of course, if he can hitch a ride to the counter, he will, as he never knows what he'll find there.

He was much better behaved over the weekend as well.