Lethargic Parrotlet

[maryyy361]

Meet my two little 3 month-old Parrotlets, Major (L) and Maestro (R). I've had them for about a month and a half now and they have been adapting very well, except for lil Maestro it seems. Unlike his very hyper brother, Maestro is always poofed up with his eyes half closed and sits with his butt closer to the ground. He eats normally and his poop looks normal. I took them to the vet and got a culture and he tested positive for a minor bacterial infection. I treated both of them with meds per doctor's orders and recently got another culture back saying that he was all clear of any infection. However, Maestro is still extremely lethargic.
He enjoys his outside time on his gym and adores my sister and knows how to step up. He refuses to fly unfortunately and often falls off of things when trying to jump, so I don't know if that is also reason to worry. Major flies (small distance, wings are clipped) and even flies to my finger when I whistle, too cute! Anyway, both boys have a balanced diet of seed and veggies every day like broccoli, corn, grapes and celery; so far those are the only fresh fruits/veg I have tried.
I'm worried about my little baby because he is so very different from his brother, I know they all have different personalities but I know he should not be falling asleep all the time, he also does not talk at all anymore, he was more vocal than Major in the beginning but now he hardly makes any noise.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Please and thank you! -Mary

 

[Phlox]

Did you use an avian vet? Because that just doesn't sound right. Those are all signs of illness.

 

[Dinosrawr]

I'm with Phlox... I definitely think there's more to be done. While anitbiotics may cause birds to worsen initially, after treatment you should see an improvement in their behaviour. I would make sure your next vet visit is scheduled with an avian specialist and to also perhaps have some blood work done, too. I'm sorry that you have to worry though, it's very upsetting to see our birds ill and feel helpless. I hope you can find an answer soon, and hopefully a professional one that solves these problems!

 

[maryyy361]

The vet I used was recommended by another vet and he has a lot of experience with birds. He is calling me this week because he was away and I plan to ask for blood work. It's odd though, there is no discharge or sneezing of any kind and he is still eating just very lethargic.

 

[MacawLoverOf3]

'has a lot of experience with birds' just because he sees a lot of birds does not necessarily make him qualified the with knowledge to see and treat birds, that is the difference. You need to get this baby into an Avian Certified Vet first thing in the morning and bring along a copy of the record from that previous vet's visit so the new one knows what was done and bring along the medication you were giving too.

I should also say that if it was just a minor infection, most vets will just prescribe an antibiotic just to make it look like he is 'treating' the bird. A body is always going to have bacteria in the body, it is normal and when you give an antibiotic that throws off the normal good flaura in the body. If the readings are high, then you treat the infection.

Your baby is sick, that vet doesn't know what is going on so you need to get him to someone that will figure out what is going on and treat according. Also, people need to make sure the vet ALWAYS runs a sensitivity test to know exactly which antibiotic needs to be used. NEVER give an antibiotic until these tests are run.

 

[RavensGryf]

Either go back to that vet and tell them that although he's "clear" of infection, something is obviously still wrong. Needs more diagnostics done. Better yet, get another opinion. Have the vet's office fax over the paperwork to the new vet and go from there. Best of luck!

 

[weco]

'has a lot of experience with birds' just because he sees a lot of birds does not necessarily make him qualified the with knowledge to see and treat birds, that is the difference. You need to get this baby into an Avian Certified Vet first thing in the morning and bring along a copy of the record from that previous vet's visit so the new one knows what was done and bring along the medication you were giving too.

I should also say that if it was just a minor infection, most vets will just prescribe an antibiotic just to make it look like he is 'treating' the bird. A body is always going to have bacteria in the body, it is normal and when you give an antibiotic that throws off the normal good flaura in the body. If the readings are high, then you treat the infection.

Your baby is sick, that vet doesn't know what is going on so you need to get him to someone that will figure out what is going on and treat according. Also, people need to make sure the vet ALWAYS runs a sensitivity test to know exactly which antibiotic needs to be used. NEVER give an antibiotic until these tests are run.

That's a bit harsh isn't it?



In 1997 there were only 59 avian certified veterinarians in the world...only 59 for some 2.5 million worldwide avian patients at the time.....that's only 17 years ago and in 2008, a pet industry survey estimated there were some 6.4 million households in the U.S. alone, with pet birds.

Even today, in the U.S., there are only 47 Avian Diplomates recognized in 2 veterinary specialties and only 2 recognized in 3 specialties, with a specialty being a catagory of practice. You do realize that to become a "certified avian specialist," a veterinarian is required to spend (after becoming a veterinarian), six years of significant avian practice experience or a formal residency plus the publication of scientific papers.....that's a hefty time & $$$ investment for someone just starting their practice. Not all veterinary colleges teach avian medicine, while most may devote a semester or split semester to the subject, it's usually an elective.

It may surprise you to learn that while a veterinarian may be experienced with avian patients, often times they have a hard time finding competent staff...a lot of people are fine with dogs or cats, but may shy away from the exotic animal, even the lowly little canary. Just because a veterinarian may not advertise as an "avian certified veterinarian" does not mean that they are any less qualified and does not mean that they are not an "avian veterinarian" - there are few practicing veterinarians who could survive on avian patients alone. Then there is the consideration of location.....a number of years ago I helped arrange a vet conference/phone consultation between a dog, cat & equine vet in the Virgin Islands with an avian ophthalmology specialist at Tulane University.....a friend's Hahn' macaw had an eye problem & neither of the vets on the island treated birds, so I called a couple of vet hospitals & found a doctor at Tulane willing to do a phone consult.....it's not hard to do.....

The reality is that today, networking is very prominent in veterinary medicine, just like it is with the medical profession that treats we humans...many local hospitals don't have a cardiologist on staff, let alone a thoracic surgeon.....what specific treatments that may be available to us just might be networked over the telephone or via conferenced videos.

If a veterinarian I first approached, recommended another veterinarian, I would definitely assume the first veterinarian knew the experience & reputation of anyone they were suggesting...just like it's not good business to recommend a shoddy contractor, I'm sure with vets recommending other vets that there is an ethical & possibly legal question in there, to recommend someone not qualified.....

If you want to find a member of the Association of Avian Veterinarians locally, here's your link:

Association of Avian Veterinarians

 

[thekarens]

If I had a general medical problem I'd go see a gp, but if I had cancer I can guarantee you I'd see a board certified oncologist. The same applies to birds.

Now I have my general avian vet that I'm comfortable with for most things, but when it's serious I see my certified avian vet and even though she's a certified avian specialist she also sees dogs, cats, etc.

There's nothing wrong with what the OP did, but I think macalover is now correct. The op has seen the first two vets and her bird is still showing signs of illness so if it's at all possible they should see a specialist and yes, just like in human medicine, someone who is certified generally does know more in their area if expertise than someone who isn't certified. 17 years is a long time and things have changed. There are a lot more options for avian specialists than there used to be.

 

[weco]

If I had a general medical problem I'd go see a gp, but if I had cancer I can guarantee you I'd see a board certified oncologist. The same applies to birds.

Now I have my general avian vet that I'm comfortable with for most things, but when it's serious I see my certified avian vet and even though she's a certified avian specialist she also sees dogs, cats, etc.

There's nothing wrong with what the OP did, but I think macalover is now correct. The op has seen the first two vets and her bird is still showing signs of illness so if it's at all possible they should see a specialist and yes, just like in human medicine, someone who is certified generally does know more in their area if expertise than someone who isn't certified. 17 years is a long time and things have changed. There are a lot more options for avian specialists than there used to be.

Actually, in the "7" posts prior to this one, the OP has seen "1" vet, who referred her to a second vet.....the second vet is/was out of town and is to call the OP on his/her return.....

And, I will grant you that 17 years may be a long time, but not long enough to school, graduate and crate enough "certified avian veterinarians" to populate even the U.S. with an estimated 6+ million bird households in 2008, how many is there today and lets say that an "avian vet" should be able to handle at least 1,500 avian patients a year, wouldn't you say, along, of course, with their other patients, we would need, conservatively, some 4,200 "certified avian vets" in the U.S.!

There are currently less than 500 "certified avian veterinarians" in the U.S., for over 18 thousand cities, towns municipalities, villages and other self-governing entities, so, going back to the estimated 6 million plus pet bird households, we really must have some overworked "certified avian veterinarians, not to mention the front office staff covering all those patient calls.....has to be at least over 10,000 a year (and that's figuring only one bird per household), per "CAV."

I think that if you were to call the Association of Avian Veterinarians and inquired as to the numbers of their U.S. members, I think you will be very surprised at the reality of the numbers.....and while I have not verified the number, I have read that there are currently only 45 "CAVs" in all of Canada.....

And while I agree with the fact that there are more options for avian veterinarians that there were 17 years ago, there are simply not the multitudes we would like to think are out there...and...I think this attitude of telling someone they "have to or must" take their bird(s) to only an avian vet is pretty single minded and doing that OP a disservice and could taint them against asking further questions or even leaving the forums.....

I will also agree with your oncology analogy, but then there are considerably more cancer patients, offering a much higher ROI for an oncology specialty.....

Thank you for reading, if you want to verify anything I have said/posted here, the information is in this thread or posted for all to read, on the internet...we just need to read some things without an emotional bent ! ! !

 

[thekarens]

I'd still argue that I might start with a regular very who sees birds, but then I'd see an avian specialist if they weren't able to resolve the issue. I see no sense in going from one gp to another IF there's a specialist within driving distance, like I said in my previous post. Though I used the oncology reference the same would apply to a rash. I might see my gp first, but if it didn't resolve I'd see a board certified dermatologist.

I didn't read any of this with an emotional bent. It makes no difference to me one way or the other who they take their bird to, but to me it makes more sense to go to the most educated specialist available when the original vet wasn't able to help. I've found this in both vets and doctors that sometimes the original vet or doctor refers patients because that's the agreement they have with that other doc, not because it's necessarily the best doc for your situation. I've been through that recently.

This doc may be the best one for the OP, but instead of taking it on blind faith I'd do some research first and read some reviews. It may turn out this vet is the best in the area. I just wouldn't take the first vet's word for it though.

 

[weco]

I'd still argue that I might start with a regular very who sees birds, but then I'd see an avian specialist if they weren't able to resolve the issue - now you're offering a hypothesis the previous posts don't offer a base for . I see no sense in going from one gp to another IF there's a specialist within driving distance, like I said in my previous just went back & looked but will look again tomorrow, when I have my magnifying glass post. Though I used the oncology reference the same would apply to a rash. I might see my gp first, but if it didn't resolve I'd see a board certified dermatologist - again, no basis for this hypothesis...only one vet has been seen so far.

I didn't read any of this with an emotional bent - didn't say you did. It makes no difference to me one way or the other who they take their bird to, but to me it makes more sense to go to the most educated specialist available when the original vet wasn't able to help - I will agree, but in the information provided in this thread, we have no idea where this bird is or the number of veterinary practitioners available, or their degree of education. I've found this in both vets and doctors that sometimes the original vet or doctor refers patients because that's the agreement they have with that other doc, not because it's necessarily the best doc for your situation. I've been through that recently. Don't dispute that & I'm sure it's possible, but that type of information was not alluded to!

This doc may be the best one for the OP, but instead of taking it on blind faith I'd do some research first and read some reviews - none of what I read in the earlier posts in this thread alluded to anything being taken on blind faith. It may turn out this vet is the best in the area. I just wouldn't take the first vet's word for it though - she hasn't, she's yet to see the second vet.

I've enjoyed this banter, though you may not have, but rather than let this thread get out of hand, this is my last post to it, but will be glad to read any final reply you might have...and, whether you agree or not, I think a reader can take away valid information from both sides ! ! !

 

[thekarens]

OP I truly hope you find some answers because it's obvious you care very much about your birds. Whatever happens please let us know how it turns out. Lethargic and fluffed up is never good with birds.

 

[MacawLoverOf3]

When it comes to the life and well being of a little birdie - heck no.

When it comes to vets, and I am referring to urban vets, most see dogs and cats as we all know. Vet #1 might say he 'sees' a lot of birds, but does Vet #2 actually treat illnesses or is it a case they clips nail and give hatchet jobs for a wing trim but because they 'see' a lot of birds, is that what makes vet #1 think he is good????? There are several vets in my area that claim they 'see' birds but I won't take my babies to them because they don't have the experience in dealing with a sick bird and I am not about to let some bozo start practicing my mine. No way.

When a vet prescribes an antibiotic as a shot gun approach for a minor infection, all he is doing is trying to pacify the owner. My guess is that he prescribed Baytril too as that is the 'go to' antibiotic they use when they don't know what is going on and need to cover their butts.

Any time an antibiotic is given it is so important to have that sensitivity test run also even though it is going to cost more, as you need to determine right from the start what should be given and will actually work against the infection. If you just administer a drug but it is not effective against that infection you have a bigger problem on your hand. The bird will not improve and if you then do more testing after that incorrect antibiotic is not fully out of the body, you will not get a true reading of what you are dealing with and the bird suffers longer and death can occur depending on what you are dealing with.

When I find someone doesn't know what they are claiming to know, I don't mess with them any more. I find someone who has the experience and knowledge, especially when it comes to my babies they are too precious for me to try a hit/miss method. I guess I am lucky in that there are 4 vets within an hours drive that know the ins and outs of sick birds.

 

[maryyy361]

Okay, aside from the arguing, thank you for all the advice from everyone. On the AAV site my vet IS on there so I'd like to think he knows what he is talking about. I am calling another vet who specializes in birds and exotics tomorrow though and see what he says.