Kirby’s Prognosis

[ravvlet]

Switching to here from the amazon subforum as it seemed more on topic!

We finally got a call after hours from the vet summarizing the results from Kirby’s blood work and xrays. Kirby is a 30-something year old orange winged amazon we recently adopted, who was very obese at the time of her appointment at 540g.

Kirby has:
-signs of fatty liver disease from her bloodwork
-thickened air sac walls
-thickened arterial walls
-vertebrae out of alignment
-several small fatty tumors as well as one larger one near her vent

The vet indicated that she felt the cause was a combination of age and poor diet. We didn’t get to speak with the tech who called directly as I wasn’t expecting the after hours call and had left my phone in my purse so it went to voicemail.

My questions for you guys -

Have any of you dealt with these issues in your birds? Especially the vertebrae; I plan on calling tomorrow for clarification but that one worries me. I should add, when I asked the vet if it was safe to engage in an exercise routine she assured me that she wasn’t at risk of heart failure and that I should start as soon as we were able.

What’s the likelihood that diet and exercise can improve any of these? From what I have gathered from reading various forums here and elsewhere it seems like a lot of these are weight related and at least some of them should improve now that she’s eating pellets and fresh veg and not just seeds, peanuts and bread like at her old home.

Otherwise she’s doing well, she’s really getting into her toys and I’ve been working her out with flapping exercises and letting her down in odd places where she can climb around on furniture (fully supervised).

 

[Laurasea]

Hi,
My rescue Quaker Penny, had fatty liver, constricted wings, low vitamin A and D, and arthritis, and withdrawn sit like lump on a stick syndrome.
Her vet didn't think her wing restrictions would improve much( from being kept in a tiny cage her while life) but my Penny suprised us both she has improved I'd say 60 % on her wings!!! She also used to stay crouched either because if the small cage before or liver pain, now she sits and moves better!!! The swelling is gone from her feet a d toes. Her liver values are nearly normal now. And she can fly!!!!
So yes I thi k you can see loads of improvement !
If you've been on here long enough you've heard me talk about the powerful effect of spending time outside. My vet recommend this for Penny's health, but when I took all the birds outside the dramatic improvement in feather luster mad me w believer!!! And if Neptune becomes a grumpy screaming mess, a half hour outside and he is a dream the rest of the day. You do not and should not put them in direct sun with no shade, you should stay right with them. I sit on my patio that is under a shade tree, so they get light to medium dappled shade. I missed two months due to temps over 100, and biting insect hoard. My mom who is 75 unobservant, and really not into my birds , said to me why aren't the birds feathers bright Anymore?!! That's how big a difference getting outside makes! I got them back outside a d their feathers shimmer again.

To sneak in veggies make a warm veggies and brown rice casserole. Pellets I add some warm water to them then add to scrambled eggs, or warm oatmeal, sometimes a little bit of applesauce. Or I mush them with plain cut up cooked bow tie pasta ...
I can't wait to see and hear how your parrot improves!!

 

[ravvlet]

Thank you, that is good to hear!

I’ve been worried about spending time outside- I’d like to but this time of year in Seattle it’s always raining and cold! Even when it’s sunny it’s cold. How cool of temps can Kirby stand before it’s not feasible to go outside?

 

[Laurasea]

My vet said even cloudy days are good. So I have a fix for the cooler temps if you have an extension cord or outlet were you intend to sit. It's called the sweeter heater, it's made for birds a d is bird safe. It's a radiant heat panel, not a light. I've used for 28 years. I'll get link from Amazon and out here. It puts out a lot of radiant heat, so I ha g it low on one side of my GCC cage and I have it on all the he time , she sits by it after a bath.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B01CYTU95K/ref=sspa_mb_hqp_detail_mobile_aax_0?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[wrench13]

Its not the cold perse that is detrimental, its the sudden change froma nice heated house to the outdoors with a 20 deg sudden change of temperature. That shocks their system. I feel for you and Kirby, I love taking our Salty outside , but the fall has def hit NY andis like 52 here today and likely to stay that way or lower now.

 

[Squeekmouse]

I really don't know anything useful to offer.... but I'm still confident that Kirby's health will improve dramatically under your care. I look forward to hearing your updates as this happens!

 

[ravvlet]

Yeah, it’s 37 outside so even with an ambient heater I suspect it is too cold! I have been taking her outside when it’s decent enough and have definitely seen an improvement on her feather condition.

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

 

[SailBoat]

STOP!!!
Prior to actively engaging in an exercise program, you need to learn how to monitor your Amazon's heart rate. You need to clearly understand the difference between their heart rate at rest (which is far more rapid that you may expect) and when you have your Amazon at a safe rate, while exercising. Over do this and you could cause heart failure.

Heavy breathing /panting /stress response is a sure sign that you have over exercised your Amazon. Commonly seen with overly warm claws and legs and a speeding out of control heart rate.

You need to know these signs and others to assure that you are gaining in strength and not dangerously overworking your Amazon. Old folks and older Parrots are not the same as those of younger age.

IMHO, your Amazon is in no shape to go out and fly a 5 mile course.
This process has to be viewed from taking your grandfather out for a 5 mile run when he has not walked 5 miles, let along a single mile in years.

Most Avian Professionals have limited experience with large Parrot's that are active fliers and especially older large Parrots. Your time line should be several years to develop and greatly improve the health of your Amazon.

Can your Amazon recover from where she is today, YES! Start with diet and very limited exercise targeting moderate improvement of muscle strength overtime.

The vertebrae out of alignment can be a concern regarding a target of extended flight. Moderate, in home flight would likely be your goal until this item is better understood. But moderate, in home flight is several years off.

Great things are possible as long as you look at this as a long term process.

 

[bug_n_flock]

A childhood friend of my brothers' got a fatty liver diagnosis several years ago now. The kid had problems with alcohol, recreational drugs, and was probably 200 pounds OVER weight.



He quit all the nasty stuff and dropped a boat load of weight. As far as I know he is much much improved. But he moved to vietnam and married a local gal; I haven't seen him in years now.



My dad also lost an immense amount of weight and brought himself back from bedbound. It *can* be done. But as Mr. Boat has said, go it SLOW!



Good luck with Kirby. We are rooting for you guys all the way!!!!

 

[ravvlet]

Sorry! I did not mean to alarm anyone! By exercise I mean I get her out of her cage once or twice a day, and sometimes she initiates a little flapping while on my hand or when she wants to glide down off a low perch item, like the bed or a low chair. Sometimes it’s just as simple as moving her to the toys and perches on top of her cage so she can amble around.

Mostly it’s just climbing around - any flapping is largely incidental (if she wants to go somewhere from a perch or my hand). I have not yet seen her panting or anything else like that.

It’s not a lot but it is still more than what she would do if left to her own devices- although I will say she has also happily and willingly been playing with her toys in her cage as well, she’s just about finished off some of her shredding stuff.

I will reread the section on gauging your Amazons resting heart rate again.

 

[GaleriaGila]

I'm glad you're helping Kirby out... what a wonderful story. Thank you for sharing.

Meanwhile, my husband's name is Kirby. Here's a video of my bird yelling to him... I thought it might be fun for you to see!

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHZfdwxFb7U"]rickeybirdproductions: "KirbyKirbyKirbyKirbyKirby!" - YouTube[/ame]

I'm glad you're with us.

 

[ravvlet]

Haha! That’s adorable. I think our Kirby would be less amused, lol. She has however started referring to herself as “Kirbybird” instead of Kirby as that’s what we call her.

 

[AmyMyBlueFront]

I totally agree on what Steven (Sailboat) said. Amy, my 30 yo Amazon doesn't fly,never has ( it was MY fault for never teaching him) he was only four months old when he picked me. Last year at his wellness check I found out he has a heart issue..PLAQUE in an artery! and needs to take a med everyday for the rest of his life. So from being not that active (i.e. FLYING) his keel muscles aren't like they should be and he was getting FAT! At that particular wellness check he was at 548gs. His diet had to be re-done. I removed ALL seed (used to have a bowl where he could snack on) and now he eats Zupreem medium "maintenance" pellets and Bird Street Bistro food and/or fresh fruit and veggies. He is down to a good 507g's now but could loose a few more g's.
We also do "flapflap" lessons which he seems to enjoy. But as 'Boats pointed out,I listen to his before/after heart rate..make sure he's not panting or stressed out. We do these lessons a couple times a week for maybe fifteen minutes. I give him a few minutes to rest up during inbetween these exercises.
I don't think he'll ever really "fly" ( he has made a couple half-hearted attempts,usually when frightened of something and doesn't make it too far ) He prefers to walk,or hitch a ride on his servantbut we still do the lessons for his health...I want him around for another thirty years!


Jim

 

[ravvlet]

I totally agree on what Steven (Sailboat) said. Amy, my 30 yo Amazon doesn't fly,never has ( it was MY fault for never teaching him) he was only four months old when he picked me. Last year at his wellness check I found out he has a heart issue..PLAQUE in an artery! and needs to take a med everyday for the rest of his life. So from being not that active (i.e. FLYING) his keel muscles aren't like they should be and he was getting FAT! At that particular wellness check he was at 548gs. His diet had to be re-done. I removed ALL seed (used to have a bowl where he could snack on) and now he eats Zupreem medium "maintenance" pellets and Bird Street Bistro food and/or fresh fruit and veggies. He is down to a good 507g's now but could loose a few more g's.
We also do "flapflap" lessons which he seems to enjoy. But as 'Boats pointed out,I listen to his before/after heart rate..make sure he's not panting or stressed out. We do these lessons a couple times a week for maybe fifteen minutes. I give him a few minutes to rest up during inbetween these exercises.
I don't think he'll ever really "fly" ( he has made a couple half-hearted attempts,usually when frightened of something and doesn't make it too far ) He prefers to walk,or hitch a ride on his servantbut we still do the lessons for his health...I want him around for another thirty years!


Jim

So, I think Kirby and Amy are more similar than I thought possible..

Kirby has lived their whole life as an assumed female - the DNA results just came back.

KIRBY IS A BOY. Everything I know is a lie! Why does he love kids so much?! I mean, LOVES KIDS. He almost exclusively talks for the kids, lets them interact with him (supervised) etc... a parrot store person said in his experience female parrots tend to do that, so I guess he’s just a really amiable dude.

I’m rolling laughing right now. Poor Amy and Kirby.

 

[noodles123]

My cockatoo came to me with fatty liver when I adopted her and I used a liquid milk-thistle mix and lactUlose (not lactose) multiple times daily. Blood-work is normal now---always consult with your vet, but lactulose can prevent seizures due to high levels of ammonia in the blood/brain and milk thistle can help heal....That, plus diet modification (low sugar, lower protein, low fat etc ). Noodles has flapping lessons too (AKA me yelling, "get the flappers going" in an annoying voice, while she clings to my hand and flaps like a maniac--often upside-down lol)

 

[ravvlet]

I will ask her, she had suggested flaxseed oil and ended up giving me the oral meds which was a mix of heart healthy oils with what I think was an ACE inhibitor (I need to check the label again) so it’s possible she’d know what you are talking about and be able to give me dosing info! Where do you get it from?

 

[PickleMeDickles]

I worked in human healthcare for many years (I'm an RN) and saw many, many people diagnosed with all sorts of "detrimental never to recover" type conditions not only recover but thrive. Your bird wears the scars of life, as we all do. With the typical care captive parrots are given I'm really not surprised by the results, but not one of the results is a death sentence. Far from it, with a program whose motto is slow and steady I'm sure most everything is "improvable" if not reversible. I know with humans it is not uncommon for vertebrae to appear out of position if someone is severely debilitated, or sometimes just with significant muscle wasting from inactivity. All of our connective tissues assist in holding our skeletal system in a type of "check and balance" arrangement. As your bird becomes more active and experiences a strengthening of muscles, tendons, etc. you may find that the vertebrae are actually able to approximate a closer to normal alignment. Regardless, any type of lifestyle improvement will only bring about good things! Good luck

 

[SailBoat]

I worked in human healthcare for many years (I'm an RN) and saw many, many people diagnosed with all sorts of "detrimental never to recover" type conditions not only recover but thrive. Your bird wears the scars of life, as we all do. With the typical care captive parrots are given I'm really not surprised by the results, but not one of the results is a death sentence. Far from it, with a program whose motto is slow and steady I'm sure most everything is "improvable" if not reversible. I know with humans it is not uncommon for vertebrae to appear out of position if someone is severely debilitated, or sometimes just with significant muscle wasting from inactivity. All of our connective tissues assist in holding our skeletal system in a type of "check and balance" arrangement. As your bird becomes more active and experiences a strengthening of muscles, tendons, etc. you may find that the vertebrae are actually able to approximate a closer to normal alignment. Regardless, any type of lifestyle improvement will only bring about good things! Good luck

Thank you for this Post !!!
Bravo !!! So very well stated !!!

 

[ravvlet]

I spoke to the vet about milk thistle and she said she felt that diet change alone would help and that she therefore did not recommend it at this time, especially since he is already taking the herbal supplements for his heart.

We gave him a few pellets to choose from and he seems to like Harrison’s Pepper Lifetime the best. I’m still offering TOPS as it’s slightly lower in fat (5 versus 5.5) but our vet prefers Harrison’s so I guess that’s okay.

We offer him chop in the morning and at night and he eats at the table with us - it seems to really encourage him to try and eat his veggies when we are all hanging out and eating together.

Cricket is banned from the dinner table at the moment as he won’t stop landing in the food.

 

[jooisk]

My rescue Quaker Penny, had fatty liver, constricted wings, low vitamin A and D, and arthritis, and withdrawn sit like lump on a stick syndrome.
Her vet didn't think her wing restrictions would improve much( from being kept in a tiny cage her while life) but my Penny suprised us both she has improved I'd say 60 % on her wings!!! She also used to stay crouched either because if the small cage before or liver pain, now she sits and moves better!!! The swelling is gone from her feet a d toes. Her liver values are nearly normal now. And she can fly!!!!
So yes I thi k you can see loads of improvement !