Jasper update

[katie_fleming]

Hey guys!

I've been meaning to get on here sooner but work has been busy and I've been sick myself.

I took Jasper to the vet on Saturday for his follow-up and they did another crop wash. Infection gone. Yes!

I also talked with the vet about pellets more. I wanted to share this tidbit from an earlier email I received before seeing her:

[FONT=&quot]As a wrote in my last emails, none of these sites have actual scientific research to prove their theories. They have NO sources for what they are advancing. And some of their advice is actually dangerous and misleading. It is true that many Eclectus have a larger proventriculus (but the rest of the GI tract remains normal), but that is caused by a disease called PDD (Proventricular Dilatation Disease) and not normal anatomy. The bornavirus that causes this disease is extremely prevalent in the captive-bred Eclectus population. This should not be used as an excuse for substandard nutrition. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]I contacted Dr Speers which was one of the vets that first brought concerns about Eclectus' diets. His explanation was that he believed that toe-tapping was due to pellets 20 years ago! This is not his position now and he recommends that all of his Eclectus patients be on pellets. In the past year, he saw over 300 Eclectus and only 1 toe-tapper. They are all on a pelleted diet. His belief is that pelleted diets have improved in recent years and that Eclectus do much better on them then off them.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]My recommendations stay the same. I would prefer to see Jasper on a mix of pellets and veggies with small amounts of fruits and seeds. If you do not want to switch Jasper onto pellets, my recommendations would be to first switch his seed mix to something more appropriate than what he is getting now and allow me to contact a veterinary nutritionist to create a balanced diet for him. Contacting a nutritionist will cost some money, but I don't know the exact prices for the creation of a avian diet. [/FONT]

I went through a bunch of sites to check references, and she is right...none are referencing any research. While I know Jasper had trouble with Harrison's I do remember my breeder had sent along some Roudybush pellets with him and he was fine on those (just mixed them in with his seeds).

So what I've decided is to give pellets another try, but start with hardly any and keep a diary of any toe tapping. Right now he toe taps approximately once every 2 months (lasts about 3-5 days each time). So we'll see if this has any impact or not. The brand I bought is called Lafeber's Pellet Berries (sunny orchard). I'll start these in probably in a few months.

I also bought a brand of seed mix from them, I'd have to check the name, it's made somewhere in the US. It doesn't have sunflower seeds which she thinks he's getting too much of. The Volkman mix does have a lot of sunflower seeds and he also gets them when we train, so that's all fine by me. I want to finish the Volkman first so it's not a waste so I won't be switching him to the new ones for a month I'm guessing. I want him on those at least a month before I try implementing the pellet berries.

Now, with all of that being said, I noticed Jasper licking the inside of his beak again tonight. Same clear/white stuff again. He was cleared for infection on Saturday so it HAS to be something different. I sent the vet an email, we'll see what she says. I'm at $700 this month in vet bills so far...hesitant about another appointment when he seems fine. Makes me wonder if he had an infection at all...

 

[Anansi]

First of all, let me just say how happy I am that Jasper has been cleared of any infection! (If indeed he ever had an infection, as you seem to now have some doubts about that diagnosis.)

Next, on one point your vet has either misunderstood or is being purposely misleading on one of her points. Not one of those articles made reference to a larger proventriculus as a normal feature of the eclectus' anatomy. Her assertion in that regard is absolutely ridiculous. Of course that is a symptom of PDD! (A little background, here. Though it was initially believed that Bixby had a genetic disorder, in the end it turned out that he died of PDD that he'd contracted at birth from his parents. The veterinarian with whom I consulted on the matter was one of the pioneers in the identification of PDD as a disease and was one of the leading researchers into its possible causes and avenues of transmission. We spoke for hours on his take on PDD and I've researched it exhaustively on my own, so believe me when I say that I'd not have linked you to anything that might imply that an enlarged proventriculus is by any measure a good thing. She doesn't know eclectus parrots.)

Now, that said, I'm not arguing against the decision you've made to give pellets another try. Like I said in another thread, I couldn't possibly sit here and tell you that pellets are universally bad for ekkies. I can't claim to have researched each and every pellet on the market and to have tested the potential effects on ekkies for each of those said pellet types. Truth is, ekkies are just more prone to toe-tapping and wing-flipping from pellets and supplements in general. But prone is different from an absolute. There are ekkies on pelleted diets who never tap a toe or flip a wing. Why? Who knows. Some are just more sensitive than others.

Funny, just this past Saturday I spoke at length with our new avian vet about the very issue of pellets. He, like your vet, is of the opinion that a mixture of pellets and fresh veggies and fruits is a good diet for eclectus parrots. And I could respect his opinion because he didn't try side-tracking the discussion with completely unrelated assertions about proventriculus sizes and such. He was very open about the fact that no one actually knows for a certainty why some ekkies do okay on pellets and some don't. He also agreed that the diet I've provided for my ekkies is very good and that he saw no need to try and push that bag of Harrison's pellets sitting on his counter on me. Lol!

So in the end, why aren't I trying pellets with my ekkies? Because their past blood tests have proven that I'm capable of providing them a balanced and healthy diet without pellets. So why risk that mine will be among the ones who suffer an adverse reaction to them? In the past, I have given pellets. Just in VERY limited amounts. 10, at most, per day.

But each of us has to determine what is best for his/her ekkie. Your approach seems quite sound, and I know that you'll be conscientious in watching Jasper for any adverse effects. Oh! Btw, I do agree with your vet on one thing. Volkmans eclectus seed does indeed have too many sunflower seeds. But since I only provide around a tea/tablespoonful each day, it isn't a problem. I simply reach in with my hand and filter out the sunflower seeds myself.

As for the repeated incidence of beak licking and clear liquid, you might want to consider a second opinion if your vet declared him free of infection... especially if you are having doubts as to whether there ever was an infection in the first place.

 

[katie_fleming]

Appreciate your reply, thank you!

So I called my Dad a few minutes ago because I noticed the stuff in Jasper's beak yet again (now 2 days in a row). He is a microbiologist so we chatted about the possibility of a bacterial infection coming back 2 days after he was cleared. He says it's possible.

I'm going to monitor him another day and see if it's there tomorrow. I also added back in the apple cider vinegar to his water tonight after my Dad recommending I do that again. Some organisms are not happy when there's more acidity.

If it persists I'm going to call the vet and ask for more antibiotics. No appointment, no test, just drugs. At this point I can't afford a vet visit a week. $700 this month has really hurt my financials.

Hoping it clears up soon...

 

[Anansi]

I'm hoping so, too. Did the apple cider vinegar help?

 

[katie_fleming]

He had a little bit again yesterday. It's weird, I only saw him do it once each day and it was when we were doing training and he was eating treats. Not sure if it's food related or just a coincidence.

I'm going to write the vet tonight when I get another look at him when I get home from work!