Hybrid birds sources

[Owlet]

There's this ignorant person that's trying to argue that there's no health issues in hybrids, specifically hybrid parrots, and demands sources. I'm having a hard time finding reliable sources to give her, anyone have articles or anything about the issues with hybrid birds and/or hybrids in general?

 

[gavagai]

I know of this article by Howard Voren, which was what first turned me against hybrids. Unfortunately, his math is based on incorrect assumptions, namely that ancestry is a continuous function, rather than discrete. I'm not sure how many chromosomes parrots have and can only find counts for pigeons, doves, turkeys, and chickens. However I'll assume (almost certainly incorrectly) that 78-80 is the rule across the class Aves, and pick the higher of them.

With 80 chromosomes, a bird will have 40 from one parent and 40 from the other. After that, it becomes a matter of chance. If you cross-breed a hybrid with a pure species, it will likely have around 20 from one parent species and 60 from another, with 1/2^40 chance of being a pure blood or a pure hybrid. While the odds of that on a first cross are laughably small, they increase on future generations. I don't feel like figuring out the math right now, but I can tell you it is many generations before a pure species becomes likely, and even then you can't be sure without genetic testing, so Voren's basic premise stands, even if the math, and consquentially the assumption that the omelette cannot be unmixed, is wrong.

 

[SailBoat]

There's this ignorant person that's trying to argue that there's no health issues in hybrids, specifically hybrid parrots, and demands sources. I'm having a hard time finding reliable sources to give her, anyone have articles or anything about the issues with hybrid birds and/or hybrids in general?

If one is to believe those that are claiming that Parrots in their Natural Regions of origins, that those population are plummeting (ask this person if they believe that or not). The question becomes, if true, where but the Companion Parrot population can these areas be repopulated. Creating Hybrids limit the availability of being able to support such efforts.

Over the years and many discussions with ignorant people. I have come to understand that even faced with a mountain of evidence they will find reason not to change their ignorant belief. In addition, what passes for education today - teaching the answers to questions is only creating more of these individuals

Add to this the very self-centeredness that is also become ever more common place and one is faced with: It's What I Want Isms! And, because I want it, it should be that way!

The reality is, you are dealing with toddler that needs a time-out and has been needed one for a very long time! Time is Precious and there is no need to waste your time on an individual that does not care what you say and even worst likes the attention!!!

Place this individual on that special list: This person is an Idiot, Avoid Interactions!

 

[Owlet]

They're being incredibly childish and even faced with sources and proof they're making up lies and telling me to "get my facts straight." It's incredibly frustrating and their next reply will determine if I just leave or continue trying to reason with them, I rather educate when I can then just quit over a bit of ignorance.

 

[SailBoat]

They're being incredibly childish and even faced with sources and proof they're making up lies and telling me to "get my facts straight." It's incredibly frustrating and their next reply will determine if I just leave or continue trying to reason with them, I rather educate when I can then just quit over a bit of ignorance.

Do not reply! Place them of the Idiot List and move on to a happier life! Clearly they are enjoying this play for attention! Your Time is much better spent elsewhere, isn't it?

They Are Playing With You!!!

 

[Owlet]

They've stopped commenting so they may realize how wrong they are. I'm now talking to someone else who shares what I'm saying but is trying to point out hybrid birds weren't the original topic

The OP originally posted about buying from breeders vs adopting from a rescue which is all good and fine but then someone pointed out that their photo contained a hybrid macaw (which isn't necessarily a bad hybrid since macaws are relatively close in genetics) but it made people questions the validity of the post since OP bought a hybrid and as far as I'm aware not many responsible breeders breed hybrids. So it raised the debate of if hybrids are okay or not and health issues in such hybrids.

 

[SailBoat]

They've stopped commenting so they may realize how wrong they are. I'm now talking to someone else who shares what I'm saying but is trying to point out hybrid birds weren't the original topic

The OP originally posted about buying from breeders vs adopting from a rescue which is all good and fine but then someone pointed out that their photo contained a hybrid macaw (which isn't necessarily a bad hybrid since macaws are relatively close in genetics) but it made people questions the validity of the post since OP bought a hybrid and as far as I'm aware not many responsible breeders breed hybrids. So it raised the debate of if hybrids are okay or not and health issues in such hybrids.

I am glad to hear that they had slide back into their holes.

You are correct, the ethical, responsible Breeders of mid to larger Parrots do not invest in hybrids. They also take great care not to allow mating between brothers and sisters, etc..

Love the way you think! You have great parents and like great teachers in your life!

 

[Violet_Diva]

I did start a thread a while ago after I 'discovered' hybrids.
There's some interesting information and opinions...

http://www.parrotforums.com/questions-answers/64508-hybrid-parrots-wonderful-wrong.html

 

[Kentuckienne]

There are layers of truth here. There's a term called hybrid vigor, which refers to the increased capacities of some mixes. A mixed breed dog, for example, probably has a better set of genes than a purebred in many cases. Purebred dogs, cats, etc are selected to conform to the appearance of the breed standard, but mixes will have better resistance to genetic disorders and are sometimes stronger and healthier. But dogs are all the same species, as are humans. Mules are examples of true cross-species hybrids that combine the size and strength of a horse with the intelligence, hardiness, and temperament of a donkey. But they are sterile. Parrots are actually different species, so hybrids could be infertile. The main problem is what Sailboat said - many parrots are going extinct in their home ranges, and may depend on the offspring of captive bred birds to restore the wild population. If the captive birds are allowed to hybridize, there won't be genetically pure individuals to release. Also, since different parrot species evolved to survive under specific environmental circumstances, a hybrid individual might not be able to survive if reintroduced into the wild.

Cross breeding is a luxury humans exercise to create animals for our amusement and needs, such as sheep herding dogs or rat catching cats, and not something we can afford for a diminishing population of a species. So I wouldn't hesitate to adopt a hybrid bird, and the bird bears no blame obviously, but I don't condone the breeding of such birds. It's vanity and selfishness.

 

[Scott]

Trolls belong underneath the proverbial bridge of truth, cowering and silent!

While a human may desire a hybrid for alleged beauty, IMO the genetic mixing of rare and endangered species typically has no good outcome. I would rather see efforts devoted to better understanding their nature and preservation of natural habitats.

 

[itzjbean]

I have heard that hybrids typically have lower fertility rates, especially with the F2, F3, F4 generation macaws. Something to do with the genetics mixing of different species that just makes it lower. That in itself is a deterrent of breeding diferent macaw species. It's much harder to keep them alive past the F1 generations I have heard and read, and breeding them is especially hard as most eggs end up infertile, just not hatching, or dying shortly after birth.

I personally love hybrid macaws though, despite the controversy of breeding them, I would love one someday, (their colors are just MAGNIFICENT) but many breeders of these 'rare hybrids' jack up the prices to twice or triple the amount.

 

[gavagai]

Part of me now wants to breed lots of hybrid macaws and flood the market with them at less than the price of pure species, just to destroy the hybrid breeders' profit margins. But aside from the fact that I'm personally opposed to hybrids and it would be hypocritical to breed them, lowering the price would likely drive up demand. I suppose it's for the best that the people who breed them are greedy enough to keep them rare through the laws of economics.