How to discourage "frisky" behavior with toys?

[IndySE]

Hey all,

Spring is in the air and Kermit is loving a lot of her toys... literally. She's coming up on 3 years so she's already passed her initial puberty monster. But she's rubbing up on a lot of her toys. I try to remove suggestive toys as she rubs up on them, but this feels more reactive vs proactive approaches. I work all day, so constantly distracting her when it occurs isn't very feasible unless I'm home.

I have noticed that her bell toy is a constant winner. She's too busy beating it up to really be thinking frisky thoughts around it (that I've noticed, anyways). So are there certain toys that tend to engage their more cerebral (or angry) selves more? I'm going to work on providing more foraging activities in her cage, but she really is quite lazy. And I know now that I should be avoiding all her paper-shreddy toys because I learned it could be construed as nesting material.

Other information; Kermit is on a natural light sleeping schedule & has no happy hut. So hoping odds are in my favor for no eggs...

 

[greytness]

It doesn't cause them any harm. Several of mine hump ropes and things. It's no big deal and something I believe they need to do in their controlled indoor lives.

 

[chris-md]

I would rethink your perception. This actually falls under the headline “doc, it hurts when I do this” - “well, then don’t do it!”

There is no “proactive”, except to avoid the triggers. This is hormones, not some learned behavior you can train out. If certain categories of toys trigger hormones, you’ll have to avoid those toys until the season passes.

Also examine what you are feeding, how you are touching Kermit, if you’re allowing her up your sleeve or into any dark area, then don’t, etc.

Basically, watch for all the standard hormone triggers, since the toys could even be simply be secondary to your larger husbandry/interactive care and practices, making things worse.

 

[YSGC]

It doesn't cause them any harm. Several of mine hump ropes and things. It's no big deal and something I believe they need to do in their controlled indoor lives.

We anthropomorphize animals, especially our pets.
And since so many people have been, uhm, conditioned (to put it judiciously for a public forum) to think of anything sexual as shameful, dirty, naughty, even evil, we transfer that garbage onto our birds.
When we recognize sexual behavior in them, we freak out.

I'm with you Greytness ... it's no big deal.

 

[Jen5200]

If your main concern is not encouraging egg-laying, I think you are doing fine. Some hormonal behavior is going to happen and mine seem to need an outlet for that frustration - bells and other toys that they can beat up seem popular this time of year. If it’s any consolation - I have 4 girls, all 4 years or older, that always have their hormonal times and then move on without laying eggs (knock on wood). None of my flock have any “hormone-encouraging” things in their cages....but they still have their times of humping each other or perches/toys. I don’t think there’s any way to discourage them from doing it - so when I’m home I keep them busy and active, and when I’m not around I try to leave them things to do in their cages and accept that it’s just part of the season. I keep a bit closer eye on them during this time and weigh them regularly to make sure no one has any sudden weight gains, but that’s about it

 

[EllenD]

It's extremely important that you NEVER punish them for masturbating, or that you do anything that they could perceive as you punishing them for masturbating...This is natural part of life, and not just for our birds, lol...My Senegal, Kane, has a stuffed animal that he has a "special" relationship with, and though it's pretty disturbing to watch (that poor Carfax "CarFox"), I just let him go....The only time I ever react in any way to them masturbating is when they try to do it ON ME...That's a no-no, but again, I don't say anything at all, I simply walk them to their cages or over to one of their stands, and then I walk away and let them alone for 10-15 minutes to cool-off, and then everything is back to normal.

Regardless of the sex of your bird, you don't every want to do anything or give them anything that is going to actually cause them to become hormonal, meaning you don't want to do anything to "Trigger" sexual-behavior, such as touching them/petting them anywhere on their body except for their head, face, neck, and under their chin and that's it...And you don't ever want to give them anything or provide them with anything inside of their cages that will "Trigger" hormonal-behavior, such as a tent, a box, a hammock, a bed of any kind, or one of those awful "Happy/Snuggle Huts"...But the fact is that a sexually-mature bird is going to naturally do what they naturally do from time to time, and that's okay as long as it's not being triggered by anything that YOU HAVE DONE OR GIVEN THEM...

So unless you've put something inside of his cage to trigger his hormonal-behavior, such as anything that creates a small, dark place like a bird bed, a "Hut", tent, or box of any kind, or any type of "Nesting-Material" in the bottom of his cage, etc., or you are letting him go underneath or behind furniture, pillows, blankets, towels, etc. when he's outside of his cage and as long as you're not touching him on inappropriate areas of his body like his wings, under his wings, his belly, legs, or near his Vent or his tail, then what he's doing is just natural and you should just let him do his thing, unless he ever starts doing it on you or another person, in which case you just want to silently put him back in his cage or on a stand for a few minutes to cool-off and then proceed normally. Otherwise, just let him do his thing and it will stop as soon as the natural breeding-season is over...

 

[chris-md]

I need to nightlight something, a bit of syngergy between my and Ellen’s posts; I had a halfhearted line about toys in my first post that I actually wanted to be the main point - there was a reason English class in high school wasn’t my strong suit.

I mentioned toys. Toys can trigger hormones. When I adopted Parker, he had a rope Toy COVERED in regurgitation. When removed he never again regurgitated. Clearly the toy induced hormones and needed to be removed.

So it’s not just the huts/dark places everyone is talking about, or the touching. Toys need to be monitored too.

And there is a clear distinction between a toy triggering the hormones, and a toy simply receiving the results of triggering. Watch your bird and experiment with rotating the toys in and out to see how Kermit reacts to each.

 

[IndySE]

Thanks all for your thoughts !

I'm not weirded out that my bird is masturbating on her toys... beats my hands anyways. I'm more concerned that this could encourage egg-laying. So I try to remove toys as I notice her rubbing up against them and rotate in new ones, but I don't punish her whasoever. She's a wild animal with no green cheek conure mate... she's going to do what she's going to do. I just am overly paranoid about egg-binding.

I haven't been observing any other sexual behaviors from her while she's out, though she has been very snuggly. I let her sit on my shoulder and she likes to snuggle against me neck (contacting only by the side of her wings, not touching her back whatsoever, and no wing twitches). I haven't noticed anything sexual in this behavior; she's done it since she was a wee baby... green cheeks just like to snuggle up against each other ? But should I stop allowing her on my shoulder for now and just limit to my fingers, or am I being overly paranoid? Additionally, should I avoid holding her and flipping her on her back while I scratch her head (again, not touching her back whatsoever) ? This is the only thing I could assess in my husbandry, otherwise I'd say it's as managed as it can be.

 

[Jen5200]

I really do think you’re doing fine. My opinion only - I don’t stop handling my girls because it’s hormone season. They sit on my shoulder and snuggle, they get lots of scritches if they want them (I always respect their “sexy” zones, so I don’t change anything). If their behavior starts to lean toward too frisky, we move on to a diversion or an activity or they can check out their play stand. I have 4 girls and we have managed not to have any eggs so far - could just be luck (*knocking on wood*). I, like you, just try to make sure that I limit the triggers and avoid anything that would tell them it’s a good environment for nesting. There’s nothing wrong with being paranoid....it means you’ll catch things early if there’s ever an issue .

 

[EllenD]

Thanks all for your thoughts !

I'm not weirded out that my bird is masturbating on her toys... beats my hands anyways. I'm more concerned that this could encourage egg-laying. So I try to remove toys as I notice her rubbing up against them and rotate in new ones, but I don't punish her whasoever. She's a wild animal with no green cheek conure mate... she's going to do what she's going to do. I just am overly paranoid about egg-binding.

I haven't been observing any other sexual behaviors from her while she's out, though she has been very snuggly. I let her sit on my shoulder and she likes to snuggle against me neck (contacting only by the side of her wings, not touching her back whatsoever, and no wing twitches). I haven't noticed anything sexual in this behavior; she's done it since she was a wee baby... green cheeks just like to snuggle up against each other ? But should I stop allowing her on my shoulder for now and just limit to my fingers, or am I being overly paranoid? Additionally, should I avoid holding her and flipping her on her back while I scratch her head (again, not touching her back whatsoever) ? This is the only thing I could assess in my husbandry, otherwise I'd say it's as managed as it can be.

And you should be worried about Egg-Binding, too many people aren't worried about it enough...And I say that as a former long-time breeder/hand-raiser who in 20+ years of breeding only ever lost one Budgie to Egg-Binding, but it was an awful way for her to go, and I actually got her to the CAV immediately upon seeing that she was straining constantly...So yes, it's a big deal because it's 100% fatal without medical-intervention of some sort...That being said, as long as you're not doing anything to Trigger it, allowing her to go places that Trigger it, and not giving her anything that is Triggering it, then you're doing a great job.

Something else to add here about the "Toy" situation...I agree that there are some toys that can trigger hormonal-behavior in birds, such as mirrors often do...But as already mentioned wisely, there is a HUGE DIFFERENCE between a toy that is actually triggering/causing the hormonal-behavior and a toy that is simply taking the result of the hormonal-behavior...We can't remove all of our bird's toys, perches, swings, etc. from their cages, and the problem is that just because your bird is masturbating/rubbing on a toy constantly does not at all mean that it's causing the hormonal-behavior...It is Breeding-Season right now, we all need to remember this...It's almost over for the Spring, so my best advice when it comes to your bird masturbating on a toy constantly or different toys is to NOT THROW IT OUT RIGHT NOW, wait until at least nest month when most birds are knocked out of Breeding-Season, and see if your bird's behavior changes/stops, because it most-likely will, and the toys they are rubbing/masturbating/regurgitating on are most-likely NOT the cause/trigger of their hormonal-behavior...Instead, if you're certain that there's none of the obvious "Triggers"/causes inside of their cages, outside of their cages that they have access to, that you're not touching them inappropriately without realizing it, etc., then just wait it out, because their sex-hormones naturally rage during this time of the year (and most again in the early Fall season). So throwing-out toys they are regurgitating on or rubbing on right now is not going to solve the issue...

****The very best things you can do to prevent your female birds/parrots from becoming Egg-Bound are #1) making sure that their regular, daily-diets are rich in all necessary Vitamins and Minerals, Protein, Amino-Acids, etc. and low in Fat, Sugars/Carbs, and Sodium, #2) making sure that all of your birds, especially your females all have constant-access to BOTH, I repeat BOTH a Cuttlebone AND an Avian Mineral-Block (a lot of people only provide their birds with one or the other but not BOTH, and that's a problem, because the nutrients that need to be at high-levels in your female bird's bodies to prevent Egg-Binding include Calcium, but not only Calcium, they also need to be taking-in high-levels of Phosphorous, Magnesium, Vitamin D (specifically Vitamin D3), Iodine, and a few others)...And NO, giving them a daily Vitamin supplement or one of those awful liquid Avian Vitamin "Drops" daily will not help at all, most-all of those that they ingest will just be excreted out in their Urates or not enough will be absorbed to matter in the first place, plus I'm not aware of ANY over-the-counter Avian Multi-Vitamin supplement that provides an exact, metered, measured-dose of any nutrient...So providing ALL of your birds/parrots, regardless of their species, with BOTH a Cuttlebone AND an Avian Mineral-Block at all times will ensure that they are ingesting enough of every crucial nutrient to keep the risk of Egg-Binding at a minimum...and then #3) Make sure that ALL of your birds, especially your female birds, are getting at least 12-hours of solid, restful sleep EVERY NIGHT!!!

***The #1 cause of Egg-Binding in female birds/parrots is a low-level of Calcium/Phosphorous/Vitamin D3 in their regular, daily diets...So if you have issues getting your birds to eat a healthy, Natural pellet as their regular staple-diet, or even if they already do eat one but maybe they aren't big on fresh Veggies or dark, leafy Greens, then once again, giving them BOTH a Cuttlebone AND an Avian Mineral-Block will fill-in the gaps missing in their diets...And if you can get them on a Natural-Light Schedule throughout the year, this is also another way to even further eliminate the chance of Egg-Binding. So proper nutrition with lots of fresh Veggies and fresh dark, leafy Greens, access to both a Cuttlebone and an Avian Mineral-Block, making sure they get at least 12-hours of sleep every night, and putting them on a Natural-Light Schedule if possible. The other thing that a lot of bird Breeders do to eliminate the risk of Egg-Binding in their females (who they KNOW will be laying a full clutch of eggs during each Breeding-Season of the year) is to feed them a small portion of Egg-Food each day...Now if you're not actually breeding your female birds but just trying to eliminate the risk of Egg-Binding, then you don't want to give your female birds a cup of Egg-Food every day, as they will start to put on weight and increase their fat intake if you do that because they aren't going to be laying a clutch of eggs (hopefully), although if your females are actually regular layers of Infertile clutches of Eggs even if they aren't being bred, then YES, you DO WANt to feed them a small portion of Egg-Food every day during Breeding-Season...If your females are not laying infertile-Eggs but you are worried about the risk of Egg-Binding or just worried that they will start laying Infertile-Eggs, then giving them a small-portion of Egg-Food 2-3 times each week will help tremendously in-addition to the Mineral-Block, Cuttlebone, and the fresh Veggies/dark, leafy Greens.

**You can buy a bag of Qwiko Egg-Food at any Petco for $9.99; you want the blue/and yellow bag of regular Egg-Food, not the red and yellow bag that is for "red-factor" birds...OR you can make your own Egg-Food at home using whole-Eggs AND THEIR SHELLS...

 

[EllenD]

Something else that I need to add in-regard to the "over-the-counter Avian Multi-Vitamin powders/drops" and what I meant by my statement above about them...There are prescription Avian Multi-Vitamins and prescription preparations of individual Avian Vitamins and Minerals that ONLY your Avian Veterinarian should be prescribing to your birds, and ONLY after your Avian Vet has done Blood-Work and/or other tests that reveal a Nutritional-Deficiency that your individual birds have. Just because you can order most prescription Avian Vitamins, Minerals, Antibiotics, Anti-Fungals, and pretty much all other prescription Avian medications and supplements online without a prescription or a Vet needing to be involved with it, you should NEVER just start giving any prescription medication, vitamin, mineral, supplements, or anything else on your own because you think your bird might need it or for "preventative" reasons such as a fear of your female bird becoming Egg-Bound. You can actually cause medical-conditions, disease-processes, illnesses and syndromes, etc. from giving your birds too much of certain Vitamins, Minerals, Enzymes, etc., and this can actually do just as much or even more harm to your bird than a lack of them does....We had someone here on the forum write a post not that long ago, I believe it was last month, asking for the name of "the best prescription Calcium-supplement available for birds" so they could find it online and order it on their own, so that they could just give it to their female bird on a "just in-case" basis...This is not a good practice to get into doing at all, because what will end-up happening since your female birds don't actually have a Calcium-deficiency, which is what those prescription supplements are intended for, is that you'll end-up causing your female birds to start having all kinds of serious, sometimes life-threatening medical conditions that are also extremely painful and stressful; the medical condition that comes to mind immediately when I think of a Calcium-overdose is the development of Renal-Calculi (Kidney and/or Bladder Stones), and calcification of the blood-vessels inside of the Kidneys. So unless your bird has been tested-for and diagnosed-with a Calcium-deficiency by your Avian Vet through blood-work, you should not EVER just go online on your own and order ANY prescription Calcium-supplement or Multi-Vitamin supplements, the main one that people seem to be ordering themselves online and giving to their birds being CalciVet.

****I will repeat this one more time for good-measure, and also mention that this not only applies to your birds or your other pets, but also to yourselves and all people as well (I have been telling this to my biological-father for years and years, since I was a kid getting ready to study medicine in college, and he didn't listen to me then and still doesn't listen to me now after getting my BS and my MS in Health-Science and practicing Medical-Research and being the Medical-Liaison at the Avian/Reptile Rescue for 8 and a half years now, he just keeps on taking his daily "One-a-Day-Men's" Multi-Vitamin and chasing it with probably 12-15 individual Vitamin/Mineral supplement pills that he already took in the Multi-Vitamin pill first, and that's on top of what he gets from his daily food-intake, lol...He's a moron, trust me, he is):

#1) Your body and your bird's body absorbs Vitamins, Minerals, Amino-Acids/Enzymes, Protein, Fiber, etc.much more efficiently and readily from the food that you and your bird (and all other pets and people) eat every day than they do from any types of supplement pills, powders, liquids, vapors, "chewies", etc.

#2) 99% of the Vitamins, Minerals, Metals, and Amino-Acids/Enzymes that you and your bird take in the form of any type of supplement pills, powders, liquids, vapors, chewies, etc. are not absorbed by your bodies at all and are excreted in your Urine/Urates, your Feces, through the pores in your skin in the form of "sweat" (electrolytes), or through other bodily-fluids (tears, saliva, etc.)...

#3) The majority of that 1% of the Vitamins, Minerals, Metals, and Amino-Acids/Enzymes that ARE absorbed by your bodies from any type of supplements that you take are only the "Fat-Soluble" Vitamins (A, D, E, K) in these supplements.This means that ALMOST ALL of the "Water-Soluble" Vitamins (B, C), Minerals, Metals, Amino-Acids/Enzymes that you and your birds take in supplement-form are not at all absorbed by your bodies but rather simply excreted in your bodily-fluids. *****The most-common example of people wasting millions of dollars every year on the purchase of worthless Vitamin-supplements that they usually take in HUGE, MASSIVE OVERDOSES that are basically ALL excreted from their bodies (at least in the United States, I don't know about other countries) are the ridiculously high amounts of Vitamin C that people take, some every single day, in a completely futile effort to keep from contracting Viral Diseases such as Influenzas (Flus), Cold Viruses, and Bacterial Infections such as Strep Throat, Bronchitis, Sinusitis, etc. It's a shame too, because Vitamin C supplements meant to keep people from "getting sick" are a multi Billion-Dollar industry in the US alone (for example, the "Airborne" line of commercially-sold supplements or "medications", lol, that are supposed to keep people from contracting all types of Viral and Bacterial Infections/Illnesses)...If you take large doses of Vitamin C or take any of the "Airborne" brand supplements in an attempt to protect yourself from contracting any Viral or Bacterial illnesses/infections, and then you find that you haven't contracted any type fo Viral or Bacterial illnesses/infections, it has NOTHING AT ALL to do with the huge amounts of Vitamin C you've taken, but rather to do with your body building-up antibodies/immunities to the specific microbes over-time that cause these illnesses/infections! I don't mean to burst anyone's bubble, but I remember when the "Airborne" brand and other similar supplements were first put on the market, and their advertising-campaigns started out in the very beginning by making statements regarding how "School-Teachers who take "Airborne" weren't being infected with any Viral or Bacterial illnesses that the rest of the populations they live in were commonly contracting and getting sick from"...;The reason they stopped making statements regarding "School-Teachers" is because the Medical Community/Medical Research Community was very quick to point-out that School Teachers, more than the people of any other profession in the US, are regularly exposed to every individual strain of Viral and Bacterial born illnesses that were being seen causing active-illness throughout their communities on a daily-basis, and the actual reason that School-Teachers do not become actively-sick with the Viral or Bacterial illnesses that the rest of the members of their local communities commonly do become actively sick with is due to their constant exposure to and build-up of Antibodies and the resulting Immunities to these microbial-born illnesses, rather than them taking "Airborne" or any other similar brands of "preventative supplements/medications" that contain huge amounts of Vitamin C, or just large doses of straight Vitamin C...

So the point to take-home here is that dosing your birds with any of the over-the-counter or prescription Avian Vitamin/Mineral supplements on a "preventative-basis" is not only futile, but can also be extremely dangerous and cause secondary-illnesses and disease processes due to overdosing...And that includes Calcium supplements such as Calcivet, or any of those horrible Avian "Vitamin Drops" that you can buy at any pet store or even in regular Grocery Stores. The best things you can do to prevent Egg-Binding in female birds as well as any Nutritional-Deficiencies in all birds are to feed them a high-protein, low-fat daily-diet that consists of a Natural Avian Pellet and/or a high-protein, low-fat, extremely varied Seed-Mix as their daily "staple" diet, along with large daily servings for both fresh Veggies and fresh dark, leafy Greens, and then to also provide them with both a Cuttlebone and an Avian Mineral-Block inside of their cages or on their play-stands, T-stands, etc. at all times, which they can eat whenever they feel they need to, and which also help to keep their beaks trimmed....And if you are purposely breeding your female birds or you have a female bird who regularly lays clutches of Infertile-Eggs, in addition to providing them with the above daily-diets along with both a Cuttlebone and an Avian Mineral-Block, you should also give them a small, daily-portion of Egg-Food throughout the entire time they are actively laying Eggs, and throughout the entire time they are feeding baby chicks. If you follow these completely safe, simple steps that post no risk whatsoever to your birds, then your female birds should not become Egg-Bound, and your birds overall should stay nutritionally-healthy.

 

[IndySE]

Wow, thank you for the wealth of information. I also once lost a female budgie to egg-binding when I was young and naive and it's such an awful way to go that I'm very vigilant that it doesn't happen again. You've reminded me of a gap I have in my care. Kermit regularly eats kale and LOVES it, which I know is loaded in iron, calcium, and I believe a bit of vitamin A... in conjunction with other veggies like beets on occasion, which also have calcium.

However, I don't provide cuttelbone or a calcium block. I've tried providing a cuttlebone, but she's simple not interested in using it like my female keet was. I've ground down a little bit of it into her pellets before... which I don't THINK is on the same level as using supplements (I avoid those unless my vet has told me to use one).

I will get a calcium block & make both available in her cage just in case, but would it be ok to scratch a little bit of both into her pellets on occasion just to make sure she's getting something out of them?