HOW Much Vitamin E!?

[Teddscau]

Okay, so I've decided to start making my guys food that meets all their vitamin and mineral requirements. Apparently I haven't been meeting their nutritional needs, despite the fact that they eat better than health nuts.

Anyways, according to two websites (both by credible avian experts), parrots need 200 IU of vitamin E per kilogram of food! You're probably thinking that isn't very much, but considering that translates into 133 mg of vitamin E, that is a lot! In order to meet their needs, I'd have to have 560 grams of almond meal in a 1,000 gram batch of food! And the reason I'm saying 560 grams of almond meal is because I'm not going to be feeding my budgies and parrotlets earthworms and waxworms. Two other websites say that parrots need 20 IU per kilogram, or 13 mg/kg.

So, how much vitamin E/kg do parrots actually need? I mean, I shouldn't have to start feeding my herbivores mackerel and worms to meet their vitamin E requirements.

 

[Printer bird]

Have you tried them on pellets supplemented with lots of fresh veggies and fruit treats? There are a lot of great pellets out there (supplemented with fresh veg) if your homemade diet isn't getting them what they need.

 

[Teddscau]

As much as I hate it, I've decided to switch my guys over to a diet of 25% Goldn'Obles, with the majority of the diet comprised of lots of veggies, sprouts, some fruit, and healthy baked foods.

But I still have to ask, how the heck do parrots get enough vitamin E in the wild? Honestly, whatever pellet manufacturers are putting in pellets to get all that vitamin E in them, it can't be natural.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Just for info Vitamin E can be gained from egg yolk, green leafy veg, alfafa sprouts, oats, wheat germ, almonds, cashews, corn, sunflower seeds.

Good idea re the pellets.

I'll send some headache tablets over to you LOL

 

[SailBoat]

That really seems like its on the high side by volume. I'm not dismissing the information, but could you please provide a link?

Next visit to our Avian Vet, I'm going to run this up the flag pole and see what happens.

 

[Teddscau]

Here's the link:
http://avianmedicine.net/content/uploads/2013/03/04nutrition1.pdf
https://www.parrotsociety.org.au/articles/avian-nutrition

The other link is to another forum, so I can only give you the title of the article:
Need and Effect of Vitamins on the Health of Budgerigars

I've been trying to figure out what amounts of different ingredients I'd need to use to make nutritionally balanced pellets, and the only way for parrots in the wild to get the required amounts of vitamins would be by eating dehydrated foods, which doesn't make sense since over 85% of their food is water. :/

Okay, there's something seriously wrong here. According to the different links, it would be impossible for parrots to consume enough vitamin B6 and B12 at the levels "required". The same goes for riboflavin. And, to make things even more interesting, none of the B-complex vitamins are fat soluble, meaning parrots would have to consume these amounts on almost a daily basis. Honestly, parrots in the wild must be dying from vitamin K toxicity and B-complex deficiencies. Okay, and folate levels seem impossible to achieve on a raw diet. This is really weird.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Found these and thought them interesting so encl -

VITAMIN SUPPLEMENTS

http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=138

I have often wondered how birds in the wild achieve a full quota of nutrients given such a lot of foods ie berries are seasonal.

As regards feeding your flock can you not feed as much fresh foods as possible and also have a good quality pellet to fill in the gaps, the birds will probably go for them last of all anyway as they naturally prefer any seeds and fresh foods in the first instance IMO.

 

[Teddscau]

Thanks for the links . I think the problem with these "dietary requirements" is due to the fact that vets and scientists apply the same dietary requirements for factory farm chickens to parrots. Obviously, they have completely different requirements, given that broiler hens have been bred to grow so quickly that their organs shut down and their legs shatter due to their weight. Not to mention the egg hens who lay so many eggs that they're completely spent in only a year.

Oh, and I managed to put together a nutritionally balanced recipe for pellets. Now, it is a little short on riboflavin (only 50% of their daily requirement), manganese (40%), phosphorous (~70%), zinc (~70%), and B12 (0% ). Sadly, it has too much protein for amazons (~20%), although I could probably come up with a tweaked recipe for them. It also has more fat than I'd like, but the fat content is definitely lower than what's in commercial pellets. Oh, and it has only a few ingredients, and more than enough vitamin A to be suitable for eclectus . Oh, I also somehow managed to get enough vitamin E in it (I must've used some sort of dark magic or something).

Seriously, the only foods with vitamin B12 are all really high in fat and very low in B12. You're probably better off buying that Nekton B-complex supplement.

In regards to the manganese, thanks for that collard greens link. I'll have to somehow add it into my recipe, but I'll have to tweak the amounts of the other ingredients so the nutrition doesn't get out of whack. Once I've done that, I'll post the recipe. I have done my best to have the minerals in the proper ratios, such as 2:1 for calcium and phosphorous.

Oh, and in regards to my flock, apparently they're not getting the proper nutrition, so the vet said to have them on 75% pellets, and the rest veggies and whatever else I want to give them. I am not going to give them 75% commercial pellets, just 33.33%.

 

[ZephyrFly]

Something to consider is that in the wild most animals don't get all the nutrients they need all the time.

Have you considered using a mix of spinach, chopped almond, and seeds in foraging toys?
Harrisons is a great pellets if you want to help give them everything too.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Thanks for the links . I think the problem with these "dietary requirements" is due to the fact that vets and scientists apply the same dietary requirements for factory farm chickens to parrots. Obviously, they have completely different requirements, given that broiler hens have been bred to grow so quickly that their organs shut down and their legs shatter due to their weight. Not to mention the egg hens who lay so many eggs that they're completely spent in only a year.

Oh, and I managed to put together a nutritionally balanced recipe for pellets. Now, it is a little short on riboflavin (only 50% of their daily requirement), manganese (40%), phosphorous (~70%), zinc (~70%), and B12 (0% ). Sadly, it has too much protein for amazons (~20%), although I could probably come up with a tweaked recipe for them. It also has more fat than I'd like, but the fat content is definitely lower than what's in commercial pellets. Oh, and it has only a few ingredients, and more than enough vitamin A to be suitable for eclectus . Oh, I also somehow managed to get enough vitamin E in it (I must've used some sort of dark magic or something).

Seriously, the only foods with vitamin B12 are all really high in fat and very low in B12. You're probably better off buying that Nekton B-complex supplement.

In regards to the manganese, thanks for that collard greens link. I'll have to somehow add it into my recipe, but I'll have to tweak the amounts of the other ingredients so the nutrition doesn't get out of whack. Once I've done that, I'll post the recipe. I have done my best to have the minerals in the proper ratios, such as 2:1 for calcium and phosphorous.

Oh, and in regards to my flock, apparently they're not getting the proper nutrition, so the vet said to have them on 75% pellets, and the rest veggies and whatever else I want to give them. I am not going to give them 75% commercial pellets, just 33.33%.

B12 is a bee to satisfy but from what I have read our breakfast cereals are the only thing I have come close to accepting as mine will not eat any meat full stop! Tried a little well cooked chicken but no, what's that mum? He will eat egg, likes that, but obviously still not getting enough, as B12 one of the first injections the vet gives him

Oooh 75% pellets, I think not too. You can achieve good results with a seriously thought out chop if they will eat most of it.

Something probably not done enough is to forage for natural foodstuffs that are available.

 

[Teddscau]

Man, B12 is definitely something else. I can't imagine how deficient my guys are, given they're on a basically vegan diet. Then again, can't most herbivores synthesize B12 in their intestines?

Okay, I just checked, and apparently I forgot something extremely obvious about B12. B12 is produced by bacteria and fungi that live in the soil. Therefore, B12 deficiency would be an anomaly in animals living in the wild. Because we live in such sterile environments where we thoroughly wash all of our plant foods, both humans and animals are suffering from nutritional deficiencies. Then again, I'm not about to smear dirt all over my birds' food. I can only imagine the number of pathogens found in soil. I wonder if they have any microbial B12 supplements out there?

Yeah, I'm definitely not going to give them what is basically an all pellet diet. Sadly, I doubt chop would work with my budgies. They HATE it when I put veggies in their dish. Oh, and chopped up veggies? They just about lose it. They can't stand frozen or cooked foods, either. They demand a large amount of variety in their diet, or else they won't eat their veggies. I mean, there's a bunch of different foods they like, but I can't give them a particular veggie more than three days in a row, or else they won't eat it again for weeks! With the amount of variety they want, I end up having to eat almost all of it because they're so tiny, but I'm a vegetarian who doesn't like vegetables. Hmm, maybe I can bum small amounts of veggies off of people I know... Maybe I should just start a weekly event in which parronts bring a variety of veggies to share with everyone? That would actually be awesome. Nobody gets enough variety in their diet because stores sell vegetables in large amounts. Like, I have to buy a month's supply of kale, even if a single leaf lasts the birds a week.

Anyways, the chop thing would work for Noah. He's pretty good about eating his veggies and trying new things. He's a carb addict though, so he picks out all of the carb-filled (yet nutritious) veggies >_<. And, again, frozen chop can only be left out for two hours.

I do try to give my birds chickweed, purslane, plantain, and whatnot that grows wild during the warm months, but the dandelion becomes too bitter after only a month, the chickweed becomes all scraggly, and my dad keeps pulling up all of the "little cabbages" (read: plantain) in the yard.

Animal-based foods are actually a very poor source of B12. Here's some food for thought: http://www.vibrancyuk.com/B12.html

Not sure how accurate the article is, but I've been getting similar info from other sources concerning B12. Fortified nutritional yeast is good, as it has B12 and all sorts of amino acids and proteins.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Thanks for the B12 link, read some but it's getting late, saving for tomorrow. Had a RB2 keeping me on my toes most of the day! He is certainly giving me an education LOL.

NB to readers onions, garlic and strong radishes are lethal to intestinal flora which then can inhibit the absorption of B12.

Chop can be put out icy and then will last somewhat longer. Bird needs something else in the meantime unless they are keen on slush puppies LOL.

Budgies sound a nightmare to feed. Do let us know that you end up with/doing?

Carbs - do you add quinoa, pasta, rice, cous cous at all?

 

[GaleriaGila]

Good advice above. And good for you for working so hard at nourishing your birds.
May I just share that my bird has been on Harrison's Pellets (the vitamins are in there) for 25-plus years, supplemented with fruits/veggies and some nuts and other treats. He's never had a sniffle. Knock on wood!
Good luck to you!

P.S. I was told by my first avian vet that parrots were omnivores, like us. I'm off to Google this now!!!

 

[Teddscau]

Man, I can't imagine having a parrot as demanding as a cockatoo! My budgies are annoying little butts when it comes to diet. Apparently it's just my guys that are challenging to feed. On the budgie forum that I'm a member of, everyone else can put fruits and veggies in their birds' dishes. There's also eat foods they bake for them, but only Noah and the dogs will eat my baking. Maybe I'm just not determined enough, but they'll actually starve themselves if I don't prepare their food the way they like it. Not to mention my guys are older birds and have various health issues due either to age or from improper care before I adopted them.

Yeah, so when I took Rumi, Noah, and Alice to the vet last week, she said they were borderline overweight because I didn't have them on a proper diet (i.e., pellets), and Rumi and Alice's health problems were likely from not eating pellets. Honestly, I got Rumi (along with Lara and Pollo) last August, and they (Rumi and Lara) were already obese. Rumi (regular budgie) weighed something like 51g and Lara (English or mixed?) weighed 50g when the Toronto Humane Society got them from Montreal. Rumi weighed 48g (still overweight) at our appointment, and Alice and Noah were almost obese.

I mean, Alice isn't the most active bird, likely from living in terrible conditions with an animal hoarder when she was only a couple of months old. I mean, she had very severe PTSD, and I'll have had her two years in late January. Noah's chubby because he was on an all seed diet for almost two years prior to me adopting him in July. And he just turned two this summer.

Anyways, for carbs, I give the budgies sprouted millet, canary, Kamut wheat, hulled oats, and barley. I give Noah the same (but far less canary and millet), but I also give him brown rice and quinoa.

Oh, it's amazing that your conure's done so well, GG. My vet recommended Tropican and Hagen (or maybe it was Harrison's?). I decided to order my guys TOPS and Goldenfeast Goldn'obles III.

Now, what did your vet mean by omnivorous? Omnivorous like a bear, or omnivorous like a gorilla?

 

[GaleriaGila]

Dictionary.com
Omnivore /ˈɒmnivɔər/ is a consumption classification for animals that have the capability to obtain energy and nutrients from materials originating from plant and animal origin. Often, omnivores also have the ability to incorporate food sources such as algae, fungi, and bacteria.

So they eat plants, bugs, sometimes small marine life or crustaceans, maybe even other animals? This source (and my first avian vet) said small amounts of meat were fine.
What Do Parrots Eat?
Since I feed Harrison's, I don't have to bother with that. I can tell you that the Rickeybird has eaten a cricket once, and I suspect but cannot prove that he caught and ate a tiny guppy once at a friend;s house ages ago.

I don't claim to be an expert. I'm sure there are multiple opinions on this.

 

[plumsmum2005]

Have or would you consider a water vitamin additive for the budgies?

Yep 'too's certainly keep you on your toes.

 

[Teddscau]

Now, I've never observed parrots in the wild, but I suspect most species are primarily herbivorous (+90% of diet), with some animal protein (insects and eggs) making up less than 10% of their diets. I would not really consider this to be "omnivorous", as sharks, crocodilians, and polar bears (all obligate carnivores) also consume plant matter as a percentage of their diets. The same can be said for herbivores such as bovines and deer, which consume animal proteins such as those from nestlings as a small part of their diet. It's all a matter of what percentage of their diet is composed of what. Unfortunately, we don't really have any idea how much of different parrot species' diets are composed of animal "products".

As for adding vitamin supplements to the budgies' water, I haven't been doing that, but I have been mixing some Nekton-S into their sprouts (on and off for the past couple of weeks at only 1/3 or 1/2 the recommended dose), then removing their sprouts from their enclosure after a couple of hours. Budgies hardly drink any water, so it wouldn't be worthwhile to put in their water. I don't want to sound blunt or anything by saying that. It probably sounds like I'm dismissing you or something. Non-verbal communication is awesome, isn't it?

With the budgies, I think I'll just have to give them ~1/3 pellets, 1/3–1/2 veggies, and 1/3 sprouts with some vitamins mixed in. I mean, if they're having one of those days when they don't feel like eating any veggies, I can't force them. However, I'm going to removing their double-flight cage from their aviary-thing in the basement, so that will force them to make full use of their enclosure. Hopefully that will encourage more natural behaviours such as foraging, thus encouraging them to readily eat their veggies. I've also ordered them some small stainless steel dishes that I'm going to put throughout their enclosure with only a little bit of sprouts and pellets in, and I'm going to move them on a regular basis, which will also force them to move around the aviary in search of food. Up until now, I've just been putting a bunch of sprouts in a big macaw dish for everyone, with some veggies on top of and attached to the sides of their cage. I just have to hang some branches from the ceiling, then I can remove their cage (they already have natural perches attached to the walls).

If I'm lucky, the snow gum saplings I've been growing will be read in 5–8 years >_<. The bottlebrush seedlings didn't turn out.