So I feel training and what not starts to get trickier as things move on like DRB was kind of saying. So Timneh has started to test her boundaries in getting my attention. She will grab my ear but thankfully not too hard yet but I've still had her spend a couple minutes on her house in time out when she grabs a hold of my ear to hard.I thought it was and accident the first couple times she pinched the back of my neck really hard. Thought she was going for mt t shirt. This time though it was pretty clear she was going for me. It hurt so I yelped Hey, then I said No and had her step up and put her back on her house for time out. Its funny she knows when shes in time out now she doesn't whistle at me for a couple of minutes then she did a short test whistle and i whistled back and 3 minutes later she was back on my shoulder. How bad of me is it to have yelled hey, I didn't yell no but i startled her I think. It was an honest reaction to the pain. I don't want to upset her but I also don't want to be chomped on every time I'm not making her dinner fast enough for her. Either way I feel bad I don't want to go backwards in our bonding. When is an offense bad enough to warrant going for a time out? Should I put her back on her HOuse every time she bites me hard enough to make me yelp? Like she just pinched my arm while I was typing to get my attention. However this pinch was ahrd enough to make me yelp and leave a little welt. She clearly was surprised by my reaction and stopped instantly. Should I have put her on her again for time out? She seems to be sorry and went back up to my shoulder and is sitting quietly. So I'm just calling it good. SHould I have handled this differently?
How big of a Jerk am I for sending Timneh to Timeout??
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AmyMyBlueFront
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I think you did the right thing.. Biting/nipping is NOT to be tolerated!
BB the 'tiel who is a Velcro bird loves my shoulder,but aggravates the crap out of me when he suddenly "boxes" with my earlobe. Sure a cockatiels bite isn't as painful as a grey or amazon,and I say loudly NO to him,and put him either in his house or on his roof top for a few minutes.
Timneh needs to learn what is exceptable and what is NOT..I think you did the right thing.
Jim
BB the 'tiel who is a Velcro bird loves my shoulder,but aggravates the crap out of me when he suddenly "boxes" with my earlobe. Sure a cockatiels bite isn't as painful as a grey or amazon,and I say loudly NO to him,and put him either in his house or on his roof top for a few minutes.
Timneh needs to learn what is exceptable and what is NOT..I think you did the right thing.
Jim
If I have learned one thing in working with Salty, it is - you must be consistent. If something is bad, it is bad every time and what ever your reaction is to put an end to it , it must be consistent. Take stepping up for us. Salty knows that when i give him the UpUp command, he has to step up. He can protest, but he knows I will be persistent to the point of taking a bite ( once) nips ( occasionally) or vocal protests ( all the time), but he will step up. And now, its rare for him to do anything but just step up. Same thing with trick training. Be consistent.
I admire you!
It has taken me years to produce the fearless, flighted Valkyrie who terrorizes our household. I just wear my hair down to cover my ears and always have a green chile or two in my pocket in case I need to lure him back inside the cage. There is no time-out on Planet Rickeybird.
Good for YOU!
It has taken me years to produce the fearless, flighted Valkyrie who terrorizes our household. I just wear my hair down to cover my ears and always have a green chile or two in my pocket in case I need to lure him back inside the cage. There is no time-out on Planet Rickeybird.
Good for YOU!
Teddscau
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I honestly don't think you did anything wrong. If you accidentally hurt a parrot (accidentally touch a sore pin feather, for example), they'll sometimes let out a yell of shock and pain to let you know that you hurt them. When I was teaching Noah to be gentle... if he bit me (he was obsessed with chewing on my fingers), I'd get his attention, give him a stern look, and ask him to be gentle in a calm voice. By doing that, I gave him a chance to correct his behaviour, and I wasn't blaming him or telling him he was "bad" (I just wanted to point out he was getting a little rough, but that I wasn't angry with him. It wasn't his fault, but he needed to stop). If he proceeded to chomp down again less than 10 seconds later, I'd give him the evil eye, tell him he was "bad" in any angry(ish), stern voice, and I would set him down, and turn my back to him, ignoring him for no more than a minute. He found it absolutely devastating when I'd ignore him and would start calling to me and would fly to me, pleading for me to forgive him and acknowledge him. After he had time to realize that biting means we don't get to play together, I'd tell him that I forgave him, and that he better be a good boy next time. Then we'd resume training and stuff.
I think it's very important to let them know that you aren't angry with them, and that you aren't punishing them. If you make too big of a deal out of it, or keep laying into them about it after the fact, it can make them angry and hurt their feelings. Sure they bit you on purpose, but it wasn't malicious. Odds are, they weren't really thinking at the time, and weren't trying to hurt you. Overreacting to a mistake or a test bite can make them angry with you. For example, when I was younger, I accidentally gave my friend a little scrape. I totally didn't mean to, and felt bad and was about to apologize, when she flipped out and started yelling at me and going around, telling everyone how I'd hurt her on purpose and stuff. At that point, I didn't feel bad anymore, and I definitely wasn't going to apologize. I just wanted to break her nose. I didn't beat her up, and probably wouldn't have, but this is a good example of why you need to let your parrot know they did something a bit naughty, but then move on. You let them know they made a mistake, they probably feel bad and embarrassed, and by letting them know you forgive them and aren't going to hold it against them, they learn from the experience and it helps to strengthen the bond between the two of you.
Make sense? I have a unique insight into the minds of parrots because of my excellent memory. I remember a lot of my childhood, and what I was thinking when I did something "bad", and how the reactions of others made me feel, and how it affected my behaviour. I remember that whenever I misbehaved, I did so without thinking. I did things without thinking (odds are I was thinking about having fun), and oftentimes I realized I'd messed up as soon as I said or did something "bad". When people would get upset, it made me feel bad and I'd become angry and retaliate. When I did do something bad on purpose, it was either because someone upset me, or because I was having a mood swing and wasn't in control of my actions. I imagine it would be exactly the same way with parrots, so I treat them in the way I would have liked to be treated.
The fact that she stopped biting when she realized she'd hurt you when she gave your arm a welt, is what you want. She was thinking, "Hey, I want some attention", so she gave you a "little" poke. But when you yelped, she realized she'd hurt you and felt bad. The way she responded afterwards by being quiet and going onto your shoulder is her way of apologizing. She didn't mean to hurt you and wanted to be forgiven. The only thing I might have done differently is I would've let her know that you understood it was an accident, and that you forgave her. It was good that you didn't give her a timeout. Timeouts should only be given if the bird refuses to modify their behaviour after being made aware that you don't appreciate the behaviour, and continue to misbehave after they've been given a second chance. If you'd given her the timeout, you would've been punishing her for apologizing and being good. This would've made her feel really bad about herself and could've caused anger and resentment towards you, so it's good that you accepted her apology and moved on. She'd learnt her lesson, so no need to beat a dead horse (or however the saying goes).
Noah behaves not because he fears the consequences of not doing so, but because he loves me. Every time he steps up for me, he doesn't do it because I'm forcing him to, but because he loves and respects me and knows that these feeling are mutual. If he's eating some really yummy food, he might not step up for me right that second, but if catch his attention and ask him to step up for me, he'll step up without making a fuss. I never force him to do what I want and always give him a choice. But 9/10 times, he chooses to do what I ask since our relationship is based on love, respect, and the right to choose.
I think it's very important to let them know that you aren't angry with them, and that you aren't punishing them. If you make too big of a deal out of it, or keep laying into them about it after the fact, it can make them angry and hurt their feelings. Sure they bit you on purpose, but it wasn't malicious. Odds are, they weren't really thinking at the time, and weren't trying to hurt you. Overreacting to a mistake or a test bite can make them angry with you. For example, when I was younger, I accidentally gave my friend a little scrape. I totally didn't mean to, and felt bad and was about to apologize, when she flipped out and started yelling at me and going around, telling everyone how I'd hurt her on purpose and stuff. At that point, I didn't feel bad anymore, and I definitely wasn't going to apologize. I just wanted to break her nose. I didn't beat her up, and probably wouldn't have, but this is a good example of why you need to let your parrot know they did something a bit naughty, but then move on. You let them know they made a mistake, they probably feel bad and embarrassed, and by letting them know you forgive them and aren't going to hold it against them, they learn from the experience and it helps to strengthen the bond between the two of you.
Make sense? I have a unique insight into the minds of parrots because of my excellent memory. I remember a lot of my childhood, and what I was thinking when I did something "bad", and how the reactions of others made me feel, and how it affected my behaviour. I remember that whenever I misbehaved, I did so without thinking. I did things without thinking (odds are I was thinking about having fun), and oftentimes I realized I'd messed up as soon as I said or did something "bad". When people would get upset, it made me feel bad and I'd become angry and retaliate. When I did do something bad on purpose, it was either because someone upset me, or because I was having a mood swing and wasn't in control of my actions. I imagine it would be exactly the same way with parrots, so I treat them in the way I would have liked to be treated.
The fact that she stopped biting when she realized she'd hurt you when she gave your arm a welt, is what you want. She was thinking, "Hey, I want some attention", so she gave you a "little" poke. But when you yelped, she realized she'd hurt you and felt bad. The way she responded afterwards by being quiet and going onto your shoulder is her way of apologizing. She didn't mean to hurt you and wanted to be forgiven. The only thing I might have done differently is I would've let her know that you understood it was an accident, and that you forgave her. It was good that you didn't give her a timeout. Timeouts should only be given if the bird refuses to modify their behaviour after being made aware that you don't appreciate the behaviour, and continue to misbehave after they've been given a second chance. If you'd given her the timeout, you would've been punishing her for apologizing and being good. This would've made her feel really bad about herself and could've caused anger and resentment towards you, so it's good that you accepted her apology and moved on. She'd learnt her lesson, so no need to beat a dead horse (or however the saying goes).
Noah behaves not because he fears the consequences of not doing so, but because he loves me. Every time he steps up for me, he doesn't do it because I'm forcing him to, but because he loves and respects me and knows that these feeling are mutual. If he's eating some really yummy food, he might not step up for me right that second, but if catch his attention and ask him to step up for me, he'll step up without making a fuss. I never force him to do what I want and always give him a choice. But 9/10 times, he chooses to do what I ask since our relationship is based on love, respect, and the right to choose.
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Timneh is so aewsome and spends a good amount of time with me. So its pretty rare that she doesn't want to step up for me. She practically jumps off her perch sometimes. She does jump down to try and find me around the house. I try not too put her in these situations but sometimes 2 minutes is too long. Or I think shes thinking she knows what im doing and where i am in the house. The first owners said she wasn't friendly. LOL Maybe not the first time she met the giant guy but we were fast friends. I love her and can't wait to hear her whistle to me when she hears me getting up in the morning. I have to back off from the perch door quickly in the mornings or else she'll jump onto me before I can have the heart to pull away. For she waits for me to open the perch door to do her morning venting as well so she needs a minute to use her papers instead of my shoulder. LOL
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Hahaha! Honestly, you're probably not being a big enough jerk. Lol!
Thing is, we humans often make the mistake of humanizing our birds. They are highly intelligent, and I believe they have feelings. But they don't perceive things in the same way that we do. And any lack of consistency, as Al pointed out, will be confusing to them.
Remember that birds communicate quite a bit via body language. If you've ever had the opportunity to watch 2 birds in the same area for any length of time, you've probably seen this. If one is annoyed, for instance, you may have seen the other fly away before you noticed anything aggressive in the other bird's body language. This is because they are better at reading body language than we are. Which makes for a very direct society. Oft-times, we are bitten because we have missed all of the body language signals our parrots have been putting out. Signals that, to any self-respecting bird, should have been glaringly obvious.
Unfortunately, our ability to perceive these things is nowhere near so finely attuned.
How does this have anything to do with what you asked? I'm getting there, I promise. Lol! You see, as I mentioned earlier, our birds perceive things differently than we do. Significantly so. So while they pick up on a lot of our body language (which is why they seem downright empathic at times), they lack the contextual information to make accurate sense of what our signals necessarily mean in a given situation. For example, someone may stroke their bird's back because they want to soothe him/her. Or because that is how they always petted their cat. But to your bird, that is a direct signal to mate. Cue Marvin Gaye, "Let's get it onnnnn!" So the human's failure to follow up after such obvious seduction is baffling to them. Even frustrating. It never quite occurs to them that their person just doesn't get it. There are no misunderstandings of this type in the avian world.
So how do we overcome this enormous gap in our ability to communicate? By forming a common basis and building upon that foundation. And how do you establish that foundation? Consistency.
And don't wait until a bite is hard enough to break the skin, either. That's giving the wrong message. My birds, for instance, are trained not to even go so far as a hard pinch. If I don't let them know what degree of pressure is acceptable, how do I expect them to learn? Birds are constantly communicating via body language. But since we are not armed with such ability, we have to rely on teaching them that "No" means they are doing something unacceptable. And one of the ways to forge that understanding is in the basic form of a timeout. Simple. Straight to the point. "That action was unacceptable, therefore you are on timeout." This allows him/her a clear understanding of what actions he/she should seek to avoid.
So yes, I do think you should've given a timeout for the welt. Why? Because welts are unpleasant.
Now, as training progresses you can come up with a warning term as well. If, for instance, your bird is nibbling on your fingers and starts getting a bit carried away, you can say something like "Gentle", in a warning tone of voice. A warning term, ignored twice or so, would then also lead to a timeout. In this instance, your bird will eventually get the message that the particular warning tone is a signal that he/she is approaching the limit of what you find acceptable. Once they get this, timeouts will be less and less necessary.
My timeouts usually last 5 minutes. During that 5 minutes, there is no contact. I'll leave the room. Or at least turn my back if leaving the room isn't an option. But timeouts rarely happen nowadays. Why? Because I have built a basis for communication with them. (And via observation, I've come to understand their likes and dislikes as well. It really is a two-way street, and once they - and we - get that the whole communication thing becomes far easier.)
Oh, one other thing. All that I've mentioned assumes that the parent is being appropriately considerate of the parrot's feelings and disposition as well. For instance, if you are "roughhousing" with a hot three amazon to the point that you get the bird all worked up in a frenzy, you might be the one to deserve the timeout when you end up getting nailed. As I said, two way street.
Thing is, we humans often make the mistake of humanizing our birds. They are highly intelligent, and I believe they have feelings. But they don't perceive things in the same way that we do. And any lack of consistency, as Al pointed out, will be confusing to them.
Remember that birds communicate quite a bit via body language. If you've ever had the opportunity to watch 2 birds in the same area for any length of time, you've probably seen this. If one is annoyed, for instance, you may have seen the other fly away before you noticed anything aggressive in the other bird's body language. This is because they are better at reading body language than we are. Which makes for a very direct society. Oft-times, we are bitten because we have missed all of the body language signals our parrots have been putting out. Signals that, to any self-respecting bird, should have been glaringly obvious.
Unfortunately, our ability to perceive these things is nowhere near so finely attuned.
How does this have anything to do with what you asked? I'm getting there, I promise. Lol! You see, as I mentioned earlier, our birds perceive things differently than we do. Significantly so. So while they pick up on a lot of our body language (which is why they seem downright empathic at times), they lack the contextual information to make accurate sense of what our signals necessarily mean in a given situation. For example, someone may stroke their bird's back because they want to soothe him/her. Or because that is how they always petted their cat. But to your bird, that is a direct signal to mate. Cue Marvin Gaye, "Let's get it onnnnn!" So the human's failure to follow up after such obvious seduction is baffling to them. Even frustrating. It never quite occurs to them that their person just doesn't get it. There are no misunderstandings of this type in the avian world.
So how do we overcome this enormous gap in our ability to communicate? By forming a common basis and building upon that foundation. And how do you establish that foundation? Consistency.
And don't wait until a bite is hard enough to break the skin, either. That's giving the wrong message. My birds, for instance, are trained not to even go so far as a hard pinch. If I don't let them know what degree of pressure is acceptable, how do I expect them to learn? Birds are constantly communicating via body language. But since we are not armed with such ability, we have to rely on teaching them that "No" means they are doing something unacceptable. And one of the ways to forge that understanding is in the basic form of a timeout. Simple. Straight to the point. "That action was unacceptable, therefore you are on timeout." This allows him/her a clear understanding of what actions he/she should seek to avoid.
So yes, I do think you should've given a timeout for the welt. Why? Because welts are unpleasant.
Now, as training progresses you can come up with a warning term as well. If, for instance, your bird is nibbling on your fingers and starts getting a bit carried away, you can say something like "Gentle", in a warning tone of voice. A warning term, ignored twice or so, would then also lead to a timeout. In this instance, your bird will eventually get the message that the particular warning tone is a signal that he/she is approaching the limit of what you find acceptable. Once they get this, timeouts will be less and less necessary.
My timeouts usually last 5 minutes. During that 5 minutes, there is no contact. I'll leave the room. Or at least turn my back if leaving the room isn't an option. But timeouts rarely happen nowadays. Why? Because I have built a basis for communication with them. (And via observation, I've come to understand their likes and dislikes as well. It really is a two-way street, and once they - and we - get that the whole communication thing becomes far easier.)
Oh, one other thing. All that I've mentioned assumes that the parent is being appropriately considerate of the parrot's feelings and disposition as well. For instance, if you are "roughhousing" with a hot three amazon to the point that you get the bird all worked up in a frenzy, you might be the one to deserve the timeout when you end up getting nailed. As I said, two way street.
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Good post and advice. I attach a word to every thing I try to convey to my CAG, it doesn't matter how trivial or significant the thing or concept is.
If Perjo is on my shoulder and I walk into another room, I say "let's walk to the _____ room". If she is walking on the ground toward me I say "Are you walking to me?, or Are you coming to see me?". If she is quiet and I have no backgroun noise going I'll say "Perjo listen, so quiet". She seems to pick up bits and pieces of the messages I am trying to convey, it helps when trying to get her to understand what she can and cannot do in my presence.
If Perjo is on my shoulder and I walk into another room, I say "let's walk to the _____ room". If she is walking on the ground toward me I say "Are you walking to me?, or Are you coming to see me?". If she is quiet and I have no backgroun noise going I'll say "Perjo listen, so quiet". She seems to pick up bits and pieces of the messages I am trying to convey, it helps when trying to get her to understand what she can and cannot do in my presence.
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