Help with trust

[JoeJoe]

Hi

I am a little scared of taking my Amazon out in my small bedroom where her cage is. She once flew into my cheek and pinch it with her beak. I know she is a good bird, but I just am afraid she might act up on me.

I really really want to take her out of the cage. My bedroom is about 13' x 14' so I don't think she would try to fly.

Can someone suggest something? Should I try to let her out and see how it goes? I always get nervous when she is out.

 

[Peppo]

Hard to say not knowing what your relationship with her is like. Have you had her long? Will she step up? Display or cage aggressive? Is she always in that bedroom? With a little more information I think many here can help

 

[Mallory]

I respect that wing clipping is a personal decision and something that is different for each household. If your amazon is potentially flying at your face, and you are scared to let her out of her cage because she is flighted, however, I think clipping would be appropriate in this situation. It is far better for her to have safe out time without flying than to be kept in her cage all day because of a fear of an attack. She's certainly not benefiting from being flighted if she doesn't get to use those wings!

I use gloves and a dowel with my amazon, and even when I am not directly using them I keep them close just in case. I highly recommend getting or building a "station" for her away from her cage - I have a ceiling-mounted boing and a homemade pvc playstand - so you two can get comfortable without her having to be on you. Don't take unnecessary risks, but find ways to work with your bird without pushing her too far! Both of you need to learn to trust each other and that takes time and effort.

 

[MonicaMc]

Before clipping I would recommend target training from within the cage. Clipping wont stop the aggression, it'll only make it potentially harder for the bird to get to it's intended target.

Target training can be a way to earn a bird's trust and learn how to work with them in a hands off manner first before working with them in a hands on manner... i.e. teaching the bird to step up onto a hand.

 

[Hawk]

Hi

I am a little scared of taking my Amazon out in my small bedroom where her cage is. She once flew into my cheek and pinch it with her beak. I know she is a good bird, but I just am afraid she might act up on me.

I really really want to take her out of the cage. My bedroom is about 13' x 14' so I don't think she would try to fly.

Can someone suggest something? Should I try to let her out and see how it goes? I always get nervous when she is out.

I would say the same as Peppo, wondering how the relationship is, how long you have had it and how old it is.

That said I'd like to share something a friend of mine shared with me
about Amazons. She has 22 Amazon, all rescues and no she doesn't
breed them. She travels now and then to South America and studies Amazons in their natural habitat. I'd say she is a pro expert on their
Behavior.

I recently had issues with my Zon a few weeks back where it became quite aggressive. So I sought her advice.

She explained to me that Amazons need to have you show them who's boss. In a flock environment, your part of the flock and they see you as such. Without establishing this, they can take over and try to establish themselves as head of the flock. And get nippy.

So, she showed me ( And believe me this sounds a bit over the top)
but as a Zon is being aggressive, reach under their wings and
with the four fingers of each hand, place it up all the way under their arm pits and flip them up against your chest where their back is up against you
and beak is out of reach from your chin and neck.

They are helpless at this stage, and softly say it's ok, it's alright.
Sounds pointless I know. You see sometimes Zons will view you as weaker than them, they don't know the difference, yet. In the wild, the stronger will dominate and be the alpha of the flock.
Your establishing this here.

I did this with Poppie, and took me a bit to want to try it, because
it sounds rather , how do I say, cruel, but in the wild, it's same principle.
I must say, since I did that, Poppie has been ever so sweet and love able
and her aggression has virtually stopped. It's totally amazing.
I really don't recommend this if one is not comfortable trying this.

My Zon's bite pressure has eased, even though she's a bit hormonal.
The Bond is even stronger now, and even my wife noticed the
difference and can't believe that works.

In time, this friend and I want to post a video of exactly how this is
done properly. In male Zon's you've established the Alpha of the flock.
For the females, you've done similar like establishing the pecking order
and who's the boss alpha of the flock.

 

[MonicaMc]

Height Dominance Written by Steve Martin President, Natural Encounters, Inc

 

[henpecked]

Yes Hawk i agree. I have found that to be very true in my many years of dealing with amazons and studying them in the wild. i haven't tried the approach your friend recommends but have found the theory true. They need a strong and confident leader. A good parront teaches their companion how to live in our world. Cage bound birds lack the social structure to learn to live with others .In the wild that bird would be "taught" by other flock members what is acceptable and what is not.( how hard to bite and who's really in charge). It's natural instinct to test the boundaries to see if the strongest bird is leading the flock. When there is no real flock the bird is in charge, chaos is the result. Socialize,socialize, socialize. I have posted hundreds of times about this when dealing with aggression and biting, you need to take charge and be the flock leader.

BTW the practice you refer to is called "flooding" , it's controversial according to many self proclaimed behaviorist, the more acceptable practice is called "positive enforcement". IMO if it gets results and improves the quality of life for all involved, what's the harm. ( hope i don't get blasted for that)

Maybe my friend with the GWM should give this a try.

 

[Hawk]

Height Dominance Written by Steve Martin President, Natural Encounters, Inc

Great article, read that before, but sure was nice to re-read it
again. That article holds very true.

There are other was as well to establish dominance in the flock over your birds, I'm am learning this from a master that has 22 amazons and frequents
her study by occasionally visiting the natural habitat from where Amazons
originate. I am so wanting to go with on a trip down there and do some
research as well. Been down there in south america a few times, work related but didn't get a whole lot of time to really go deep into amazon
country, so that would be an awesome adventure.

 

[Hawk]

Yes Hawk i agree. I have found that to be very true in my many years of dealing with amazons and studying them in the wild. i haven't tried the approach your friend recommends but have found the theory true. They need a strong and confident leader. A good parront teaches their companion how to live in our world. Cage bound birds lack the social structure to learn to live with others .In the wild that bird would be "taught" by other flock members what is acceptable and what is not.( how hard to bite and who's really in charge). It's natural instinct to test the boundaries to see if the strongest bird is leading the flock. When there is no real flock the bird is in charge, chaos is the result. Socialize,socialize, socialize. I have posted hundreds of times about this when dealing with aggression and biting, you need to take charge and be the flock leader.

BTW the practice you refer to is called "flooding" , it's controversial according to many self proclaimed behaviorist, the more acceptable practice is called "positive enforcement". IMO if it gets results and improves the quality of life for all involved, what's the harm. ( hope i don't get blasted for that)

Maybe my friend with the GWM should give this a try.

Flooding, that's it. I couldn't remember what that was called. I agree
that it is controversial, and definitely do not recommend trying this if your
light hearted, or fear being bitten, as this approach is used when they are
in Very aggressive/ Bitey mood on a constant level. You will get bitten.

The height dominance routine also works, for some, if you not a small
person like the friend of mine that uses flooding. She's 5'1 and most cages are taller than her. But she shows no fear. And has the scars to prove it.

Amazons will test their boundaries and try and take of as leader. They want to see if your really the leader and strong enough
to do so.. reinforcement reminder is always required from time to time.
And your right, in the wild they are taught this and taught to be tough.
Survival instincts.

However the Flooding approach is used to reinforce dominance within the flock. My Zon will get nasty and has nearly taken my wifes head off.
So many have said, wow, she's a real nasty Zon and should get rid of her or re-home her. And this comes from parrot owners that know me. I say that she was rescued and I will not re-home her.

The approach is not fun, but after i do it, I leave her alone in her room
for 2 to 5 hours. Then she is ready to be held again. Back to being sweet
and saying " I'm a good girl, up up come on come on" and My poppie is
then back.

The rest of the flock see me do this and flip her, and they are like,
" I'm cool, you don't need to show me, you Da man" LOL.
However the rest of the flock has been flooded as well, and each one
is great now.

No, I don't think you, or I will get Blasted for that.
It's a natural behavior in the wild. It's in their DNA to practice
and seek dominance, or try to. I would of thought it
a bit over the top too if I hadn't seen it and been shown this
and explained this in immense detail.

 

[Birdman666]

I respect that wing clipping is a personal decision and something that is different for each household. If your amazon is potentially flying at your face, and you are scared to let her out of her cage because she is flighted, however, I think clipping would be appropriate in this situation. It is far better for her to have safe out time without flying than to be kept in her cage all day because of a fear of an attack. She's certainly not benefiting from being flighted if she doesn't get to use those wings!

I agree with this one. I would clip this bird until the bad behaviors get under control. Bird wings grow back. Human facial flesh might not, at least not without scarring... To me this is a safety issue.

Another option other than gloves, or dowels, is to wear a long sleeve shirt. Wrap a face towel sized towel around your arm under the shirt, and secure it in place using two ace bandages. Step her up on your protected forearm.

Now even if she does bite your arm, she gets a beak full of towels, and you are in a position to control her. You got a beak full of towels. I got your beak. NOW KNOCK IT OFF! YOU BEHAVE. NO BITING.

 

[Anansi]

Height Dominance Written by Steve Martin President, Natural Encounters, Inc

Great article, read that before, but sure was nice to re-read it
again. That article holds very true.

There are other was as well to establish dominance in the flock over your birds, I'm am learning this from a master that has 22 amazons and frequents
her study by occasionally visiting the natural habitat from where Amazons
originate...


The height dominance routine also works, for some, if you not a small
person like the friend of mine that uses flooding. She's 5'1 and most cages are taller than her. But she shows no fear. And has the scars to prove it.

Amazons will test their boundaries and try and take of as leader. They want to see if your really the leader and strong enough
to do so.. reinforcement reminder is always required from time to time.
And your right, in the wild they are taught this and taught to be tough.
Survival instincts...


...It's a natural behavior in the wild. It's in their DNA to practice
and seek dominance, or try to...

Hey, Michael. Just chiming in here for the sake of clearing up a little seeming confusion on your part and for any readers who may be deciding between techniques, here.

You quoted Monica and said you'd read the article she'd referenced and thought it held very true. But I think you may have mistaken that article for another.

You seem to be pointing toward that article as an alternative method to flooding, through height dominance, of establishing oneself as flock leader. But in reality, that article is taking the exact opposite position. It is, in fact, positing that height dominance, aggression for the sake of dominance, and the very idea of a flock leader at all in the wild, is naught but a myth. A fallacy perpetuated by parrot owners who have anthropomorphized their beloved birds and, in so doing, misinterpreted the true nature of their interactions in the wild.

You, however, hold with the opposing school of thought. The belief that there is indeed a hierarchy to be found amongst parrot flocks. As well as a flock leader. And aggressive behavior for the sake of dominance.

To be honest, I myself do not yet have a hard and fast opinion on this rather heavily debated topic. (Though I do have something of a theory as regards height dominance, but that's a post for another time.) After all, unlike either the writer of that article or our very own Richard (Henpecked), I've never had the opportunity to observe parrots in the wild. But I did want to clarify the difference between the article's positions and your own, both for the sake of the article's author and for any who might be reading.

 

[Hawk]

Height Dominance Written by Steve Martin President, Natural Encounters, Inc

Great article, read that before, but sure was nice to re-read it
again. That article holds very true.

There are other was as well to establish dominance in the flock over your birds, I'm am learning this from a master that has 22 amazons and frequents
her study by occasionally visiting the natural habitat from where Amazons
originate...


The height dominance routine also works, for some, if you not a small
person like the friend of mine that uses flooding. She's 5'1 and most cages are taller than her. But she shows no fear. And has the scars to prove it.

Amazons will test their boundaries and try and take of as leader. They want to see if your really the leader and strong enough
to do so.. reinforcement reminder is always required from time to time.
And your right, in the wild they are taught this and taught to be tough.
Survival instincts...


...It's a natural behavior in the wild. It's in their DNA to practice
and seek dominance, or try to...

Hey, Michael. Just chiming in here for the sake of clearing up a little seeming confusion on your part and for any readers who may be deciding between techniques, here.

You quoted Monica and said you'd read the article she'd referenced and thought it held very true. But I think you may have mistaken that article for another.

You seem to be pointing toward that article as an alternative method to flooding, through height dominance, of establishing oneself as flock leader. But in reality, that article is taking the exact opposite position. It is, in fact, positing that height dominance, aggression for the sake of dominance, and the very idea of a flock leader at all in the wild, is naught but a myth. A fallacy perpetuated by parrot owners who have anthropomorphized their beloved birds and, in so doing, misinterpreted the true nature of their interactions in the wild.

You, however, hold with the opposing school of thought. The belief that there is indeed a hierarchy to be found amongst parrot flocks. As well as a flock leader. And aggressive behavior for the sake of dominance.

To be honest, I myself do not yet have a hard and fast opinion on this rather heavily debated topic. (Though I do have something of a theory as regards height dominance, but that's a post for another time.) After all, unlike either the writer of that article or our very own Richard (Henpecked), I've never had the opportunity to observe parrots in the wild. But I did want to clarify the difference between the article's positions and your own, both for the sake of the article's author and for any who might be reading.

Hi Anansi,

I simply referenced that I have read that article before, and height dominance dose apply to many (not all) spices of parrots. I have had the opportunity to travel to south America 5 times over the last 3 years, work mostly, for 6-8 weeks at a time. Had the chance to travel a small bit to Amazon country. Not as much as I wanted.

Parrots will seek the highest branch, those at the highest will prove more
dominant than others. Not a myth, unless you observe it first hand in the wild. A friend of mine, going on 63, has been going down there for over 30 years has a love for Amazons and currently has 22. She has notes that can fill a 10 x 10 room wall to wall on every aspect of the Amazon parrots and in the process of writing a book.

Some of the techniques I described I too thought maybe a little over the top, but this person apparently knows her stuff with their behaviors.

I use flooding, and it does work for the hard to handle amazons. You know, the ones that sit in cages for days on end and years go by before they are bought from a store. It's sad in my opinion, want to take them all home.

I've actually retired this year at 59, I don't really need to work any more, and thought of venturing a few times down to south America with her and her husband and my wife and learn the deep secrets of the wild.
Call it my bucket list....LOL.

 

[Peppo]

Maybe I am a little naive but the original post said that the bird did this ONCE. It did not indicate that it was an attack bird or anything like that. What about some run of the mill basics of getting to know you or re-getting to know you like speaking gently, hand feeding yummies, the things you do to establish any relationship. Sometimes I think too much knowledge is not a good thing and makes our relationships too technical. With gentle effort, a lot of effort, attention, praise and good things, a lot of this book stuff is not always necessary. For a bird that did this once, not knowing the circumstances of why, I think a lot of this is over the top. I was very naive when I got my Paco who I was told was an "attacker." Naively, I showed CONSISTENT love and patience, that's all, and I earned a best friend. maybe I just got lucky.

 

[getwozzy]

I also agree that this whole height dominance thing is rubbish..... I have one galah who occasionally sits on my head-- I'm more at risk of being crapped on than dominated. My other galah likes to sit on top of their huge cage because she feels safe up their- not because she's trying to dominate everyone in the room.

And flooding..... I feel sorry for birds subjected to this method of training --if you're getting bitten then you're obviously NOT paying attention to their body language and you're rushing the relationship. There are other ways (positive reinforcement) to build a relationship and break down behavioral issues than to force yourself upon a bird ---ever heard the phrase "no means no"??

 

[JerseyWendy]

......So, she showed me ( And believe me this sounds a bit over the top)
......

A 'bit' over the top?

IMO height dominance is rubbish. Of course I'm no expert, nor do I have any expert friends whom I regularly consult with. I'm merely speaking of experience here.

Don't even get me started on 'flooding'. I'll save that rant for another day. :54:

 

[Birdman666]

......So, she showed me ( And believe me this sounds a bit over the top)
......

A 'bit' over the top?

IMO height dominance is rubbish. Of course I'm no expert, nor do I have any expert friends whom I regularly consult with. I'm merely speaking of experience here.

Don't even get me started on 'flooding'. I'll save that rant for another day. :54:

I HAPPEN TO AGREE...

A bird up high misbehaves, not because of DOMINANCE, but because they are smart enough to recognize that you are NOT in a position to control them.

If height dominance were a real thing, then kindly explain why none of my birds, and I have six of them including a GW Mac, act up, even though all of their playstands are around seven feet tall, which is a foot taller than I am... They come down when I call them because they have been taught to behave, and they WANT attention. Sally comes down from the top of a 25 foot tree when I call her... WHY?! IF SHE'S DOMINANT UP THERE... WHY WOULD SHE EVER COME BACK?!

"HEIGHT DOMINANCE" is nothing more than a training issue in my opinion... Mattie Sue started this myth because she noticed the bad behaviors when they were up high. And she was correct about the cause and effect. Just not the "whys." Lowering the training perch DOES improve the behavior, because they know they can't get away with anything down low.

AS FOR FLOODING... There are concepts that work, and I have seen it work. BUT THIS TAKES IT WAY TOO FAR!!! Gradual desensitization training does the same thing WITHOUT overwhelming, or terrorizing the bird... much more humane and enlightened way to do it!!! AND JUST AS EFFECTIVE, IF NOT MORE SO. YOU MAKE MORE PROGRESS DOING IT THAT WAY, AGAIN, IN MY OPINION... WITHOUT THE RISK OF INSTILLING FEAR BEHAVIORS IN THE BIRD, WHICH ONLY SET BACK YOUR TRAINING, ANYWAY.

 

[JerseyWendy]

Parrots will seek the highest branch, those at the highest will prove more
dominant than others. Not a myth, unless you observe it first hand in the wild. A friend of mine, going on 63, has been going down there for over 30 years has a love for Amazons and currently has 22. She has notes that can fill a 10 x 10 room wall to wall on every aspect of the Amazon parrots and in the process of writing a book.

Our parrots are NOT in the wild. They're in our homes. Parrots are also not domesticated. Observing a parrot in the wild is great, and 'may' teach you a whole lot about their wild counterparts, however, once again...our birds are not in the wild, and more often than not behave differently as the vast majority of our own birds do not live in a flock of their own kind.

Why do parrots seek out high parts? So they can see everything better! As Mark has said, if trained properly, they'll come down off their high perch with ease.

I use flooding, and it does work for the hard to handle amazons. You know, the ones that sit in cages for days on end and years go by before they are bought from a store. It's sad in my opinion, want to take them all home.

Believe me, I won't even attempt to tell you how wrong this approach is. After all, who am I? Certainly no expert.

But perhaps if you took the time to read up on 'flooding', and its effects, you may actually open your eyes a bit. (Unless, of course, in your opinion this author is clueless :54
http://www.behaviorworks.org/files/articles/Alternatives to Parrot Breaking 2002.pdf

 

[henpecked]

BTW parrots in the wild do not seek the highest branches. The birds that perchon the ends and above , are the ones most vulnerable. The true flock leaders perch below , close to the tree trunk, and let the "outsiders" take the risk. In a flock of mature amazons, nest sites, mean every thing. Only the strongest pair gets the best sites, year after year. They are the same birds who decide where the flock roost, feds , water, rest, etc. yes , in flock of wild zons there's much fighting, some play, some not. BUT the same birds win the fights unless the adults become involved. Mature pairs, have little time,patience, for the teenager's , until you're 10 years old and have a good mate, you're at best a guard dog.Adults know where they stand in the flock, fights are rae except for nest sites. The youngsters, will fight but not with adult pair, once bonded you'll have to fight both of them. If you're not the best pair your nest will face the wrong way when it rains and your chicks will drown. Your nest is too close to the owl nest. It's too easy for the predators to climb your tree. Every year the "alfa" pair has to fight off other pairs from their nest site. Usually the same pairs they fought last year. When they can't defend it, someone else wins that site. You're dreaming if you think there's no "pecking order" in a wild flock of zons. Just an old man's observations.

 

[Birdman666]

I have SIX parrots. I have a 25 foot oak tree in my front yard. They go outside and sit in it almost every day...

I have a grand total of ONE bird that goes to the upper branches - and that is Sally. Top of the tree every time.

My two macaws, one other amazon, and my CAG? Lowest branches, closest to people. After a short time BOTH macaws prefer my lap to the tree.

Kiwi doesn't even go in the tree. Her "spot" outside is the back of my chair, with her face pressed up against the side of my head...

WHERE A 25 FOOT TREE WAS AVAILABLE.

Sally comes down from the top of the tree when I call her.

Again, if HEIGHT DOMINANCE were a real thing, then kindly explain that... Especially from the perspective of a massive 1700+ gm. Bolivian Greenwing...

The answer, of course, is it isn't a universal truth. It was Mattie Sue's pet theory, that got a lot of publicity, had some valid reasoning behind it... AND PEOPLE ASSUMED IT WAS GOSPEL. SO IT'S WHAT FOLKS BELIEVED TO BE TRUE.

People believed the earth was flat once, and the sun revolved around the earth. I'm just saying...

Height dominance = BECAUSE I CAN, THAT'S WHY!

 

[Anansi]

I think you're both speaking on different topics. Height dominance vs flock hierarchies. Height dominance is sometimes attributed to flock hierarchies, but not in Richard's take on the flock dynamic.

Mark, on the other hand, is disputing height dominance. Not flock hierarchies. (And given the multiple references to Sally as flock leader, I reckon you both see pretty much eye to eye on the flock dynamic.)

Now, much as I am enjoying this topic, it occurs to me that we have meandered away from the OP's original questions.

Help with trust. Should he take her out of the cage despite her having once flown over and bitten him on the cheek. Will doing so within the smaller environs of his 13' x 14' bedroom make a difference in this scenario. Let's bring our focus, and collective experience, back to the OP.