Height Dominance?

[Tonkatiel]

So I don't really understand this whole 'height dominance' thing.
Pretty much every book ive read on parrots, carries on about how you should never allow a bird to sit higher than you. The only book I've read that states otherwise is Parrots For Dummies - which explained the authors opinion that birds like to be higher because 1. They're birds and it's natural for them to sit up high in trees etc, and 2. When a flock of parrots is watched, you see that the more 'nervous' birds are generally the ones higher up, not the more outgoing, supposedly dominant birds.

I'm obviously no expert - but this definitely makes more sense to me than a bird thinking it's the leader simply because it sits higher than the rest of the flock :/

My lovebirds who all live in the same cage don't seem to show any signs of height dominance at all. If I had to pick a 'dominant' one out of the 3, I would pick the female, Aussie. But her favourite perch is about halfway down the cage. Johnny's (the most nervous of the 3) favourite perch is the highest in the cage. Also when they're out of the cage, Johnny always stays in higher locations, whereas Aussie and Sid will happily venture down to the floor etc..

My cockatiel who is DEFINITELY nervous (only had him for 3 weeks), has never ventured to the bottom half of his cage, no matter what I put down there for him, and only leaves the top perch to get to his food and water.

So in my opinion, 'height dominance' has nothing to do with being dominant, but more to do with a natural idea of security.

Have I got the complete wrong idea? Would love to hear others opinions

 

[JerseyWendy]

...

So in my opinion, 'height dominance' has nothing to do with being dominant, but more to do with a natural idea of security.

Have I got the complete wrong idea? Would love to hear others opinions

I agree with you. Parrots like to go up high so they can see everything.

Now with larger parrots like Macaws, Amazons, etc. it's not the wisest thing to keep them on your shoulder as a frightened or ornery big bird can do quite some damage to your face in a split second.

 

[SandyBee]

More and more the idea of height dominance is being discarded.
More people believe that birds go high because they feel safer

 

[aliray]

I also agree. I think being a prey animal height means safety. The more you can see the better your chance of getting away in time and not being someone's lunch.. I also agree with Wendy that a bigger bird is probably not the best bird to have on your shoulder due to the more serious damage that a big beak can do to a face. Even my small parrots can give a good bite if they want to and my quaker has drawn blood a few times when he got me in the cheek and got hubby and me in the lip. He was in a bad mood that day and a few other days.

 

[Tonkatiel]

Oh I definitely agree that you shouldn't sit a larger parrot on your shoulder, I've heard some horrible stories of perfectly friendly parrots getting frightened and doing serious damage :/

I read a book on 'taming parrots' last week that explained height dominance, and that you should never allow your bird to be flighted, simply because it will then be able to get into positions higher than you, and therefore you should permanently keep the wings clipped. Now I'm neither for nor against wing clipping, I think both have pros and cons. But to keep your bird permanently clipped only for this one single reason?? I was ready to throw the book away after reading that.

 

[SandyBee]

Oh I so don't agree with that statement, My amazon is now fully flighted, he flies to me!
There is something to be said about clips in the beginning when training them, clipping MAY make it easier.

 

[ShellyBorg]

I have a couple of my smaller parrots in cages where they can sit up higher then my head. It helped my Quaker get over some cage aggression once I put her higher. She can now see everything going on and I can reach up to her with out any issues. When I was reaching down she hated it!

 

[MonicaMc]

And yet, many people still believe that parrots are dominant creatures and must be taught to obey....

This i have neer read anywhere and probably sounds mean. But I too have toweled him and just talk to him to calm him. He likes towels generally, especially wet ones so he has no fear of them. I just wrap him and prevent him from biting me and remind him who is boss

And sitting on top of a cage can also be a "I'm the boss" behaviour because he's up higher than you.

With most birds especially macaws, you have to be a bit forceful with them and show them who is boss.

Oh also, do NOT allow him on your shoulders. When you allow his eye level to be above yours, he will think he is the boss.

I will from this point on not be afraid to show her exactly who is boss and what is expected from her.

Galahs are very bossy birds, if you let him think this is ok, he will take advantage of it. You need to be just that bit bossier.

Once a Macaws knows who the boss is in the relationship, the better off the Macaw and owner or owners are.

They also need to know who the "boss" is-if there really is sucha thing in the birdie world.

You will need to periodically establish boundaries or your bird will learn that you are not the boss.

Let you bird know you are the boss, what is acceptable and not acceptable.

To me the bottom line is we, the humans, are the boss.

These all posted this year, and all with the keyword "boss".



And my thoughts...

Is it true that I should not let my bird get above eye level or he will feel dominant over me?

Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk: Building Trust with Your Parrot

Building trust with your parrot is a very realistic goal. What it requires is tossing out those old school notions about how to interact with animals. You are not going to be the boss, your bird does not have to obey you, and your parrot doesn’t have to do anything right this second.

Good Bird Inc Parrot Training Talk: Rules for Parrots

Why Won't Dominance Die? | Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (from Part I: On positive reinforcement | Learning Parrots)

Living With Parrots Cage Free: I've Got The Time!

This is why learning about body language in general, and particularly the body language of each of our own unique birds, from little ones to big, is so very critical. It is about the development of a relationship, not the assertion of power and dominance.

Is it possible some misconceptions are borne from many not growing up with birds? I think there is also a direct correlation to the ability of the animal to potentially do harm to our delicate skin. If one bite from a bird was lethal, we would see a completely different approach to training. We don't see snake handlers that are determined to 'show the snake who is boss'... instead, they are called snake charmers for a reason. They certainly don't stick their hand in the snake's cage and let it bite them until it "realizes that biting doesn't gain anything and then it will eventually stop".

Living With Parrots Cage Free: The Least of These

 

[Tonkatiel]

I had noticed that its mentioned a fair bit on these forums, which is pretty much why I wanted to hear others opinions. If I had only read about it in books, I would have just assumed the books I was reading were outdated. But it definitely does still seem to be believed :/

 

[MonicaMc]

I love my a-vet! She has an african grey and an amazon as pets. Before she was "forced" to leave her practice in my city(s), both of them came to work with her every day! Usually, the grey would be up front supervising incoming clients, would occasionally talk to people and the staff could sometimes interact with him. The zon, being the lesser interactive of the two, preferred being in the back away from all the commotion.

I found it quite amusing once when I went to a lecture of hers on parrots and she had one bird on her shoulder and another on her head!


She now works out of town at a dog and cat rescue network where she practices out of, and I don't think she can bring her birds with her anymore... (probably more for safety than anything else - I've only been once!)



The reason that many 'old' beliefs are still believed in is because they "work". I believe that they can work with the *right* birds, or when paired with the right training, but done wrong and you'll end up with birds with aversive behaviors. Many of these owners can't allow their birds to be flighted because when the bird flies, the bird refuses to do anything the owner asks him or her to do. The owners believe it is the birds way of saying "I'm boss, I'm not listening to you" - when in fact it is the birds way of saying "I don't like this, I'm getting away from you". If they would have employed the right kind of training then they wouldn't be having those issues and more birds could be kept flighted.

 

[Mayden]

I'm gonna agree with most others. The height is little to do with dominance and more to do with security.

By being the 'protector' of the flock, the lookout, the one who will call when they see predators etc, they are protecting THEIR territory, THEIR flock and so you could interpret that as 'dominance' I suppose. But really it's all about being part of a group and wanting to keep said group safe. Usually the lookout work is done in shifts, so, for example, when Merlin is sleepy, he expects me to be HIS lookout and vise versa. It's unusual to sleep when I'm sleeping unless he is sat perched way above me.

Him being the 'dominant' one. (aka. look out!)

Me being the 'dominant' one.