Grey Adoptee Mutilation - Advice Needed

[Style]

Hello and thanks in advance to everyone!

I'll provide a summary first and detail after, since I'm long winded, and many may not have time to read everything:

I can certainly take her to the vet at any time, but as I had a full workup done around 6 months ago, and understand these issues to be normally be environmental, I don't want to get caught up in a loop of my vet "testing and guessing" with subsequent drugs involved. I also don't want to wait too long either, so I'm looking for suggestions:

Summary:
I adopted a 22 yo Congo African Grey around Easter. She (confirmed by egg laying) was not abused per se, but kept in too small of a cage, in too small of quarters, with a poor diet/training/handling/grooming. I have access to previous owner. She has always been a plucker, and most of her chest is/has been bare for a number of years.

Upon adoption, she had a full vetrinary exam, was diagnosed as borderline underweight, but otherwise in good health. There was a question about egg binding, xrays were done, and there was no egg or evidence of other issue.

About a month ago (begining October), she started picking at the skin/feathers under both wings. This progressed, to actively biting/chewing and opening wounds. There were no major changes in the environment, except that I went through a rough patch at work, so while she got the same amount of contact time, and out of cage time, it was not quality time. That situation has been remedied for more than 4 weeks now, and normal routine has returned.

I have performed home treatment in the form of misting with water and then drying the mutilation area every day, and applying aloe (actual aloe that I grow, not store bought or anything) when the wounds are closed.

There is a distinct smell that has grown over the last month. I'm not sure how to describe it... maybe like fruit going bad? I have not given her a full shower since this started since showers cause her stress. The strength of the smell ebbs and wans.

Three additional points of note: she is verbally communicating less, doesn't flap her wings as much (understandable with the under wing scabbing I suppose), and seems to be shivering more than before.

I can certainly take her to the vet at any time, but as I had a full workup done around 6 months ago, and understand these issues to be normally be environmental, I don't want to get caught up in a loop of my vet "testing and guessing" with subsequent drugs involved. I also don't want to wait too long either, so I'm looking for suggestions

Any suggestions or similar experiences/solutions would be most welcomed.

Thanks again

 

[Style]

Details:
Housing:
Smokey is now living in a 4' wide corner cage. Most of the toys and perches were introduced relatively slowly, but part of moving her into a larger cage meant more things to occupy it. She is not close enough to any windows for draft or predator issues

Diet:
Equal parts Dr. Harveys and Dr. Fosters and Smith parrot mixes. I don't weigh, but I measure out by tablespoons and inspect what's left over near daily. I also have a pellet mix of 3 different types of pellets that I buy from a local shop. I'm in the process of figuring out who makes those different pellets so I can recreate and/or improve.

About 5 days a week, she gets:

• 1/3 of a scrambled egg sprinkled with Dr. Harveys WFS for birds (the other 2/3s go to my other 2 birds). She LOVES this.
• a couple of veggies a day, usually corn on the cob, carrot, snap peas, and whatever else I think I can coax them to eat: there is always something new, although not always accepted
• popcorn dusted with Nekton vitamans

and probably more than I should, there are treats of grapes, apples, pomegranates, but not enough to interfere with actual food.

Training:
About 5 days a week, all birds get 15 minutes a piece of training in front of eachother: step-up, turn, shake, and the like. Her rewards are organic, unsalted cashew pieces, and organic in nut pinenut when she does well.

Environment:
She's in my livingroom with my other 2 brids (conure and an amazon). The cages are more than 15' apart. The 1 drawback is that she's only about 8' from the TV. She's been there since day one though, so I don't think this is the problem. We are watching less and less TV, and I'm reading to them more. TV is not completely gone, and let's hope it's not my voice!

The room is almost never completely quiet, at least I have classical music playing very queitly into the night

The room isn't super humid, but there are half a dozen plants that get misted daily, and of course they release tons of oxygen. She does not eat the plants

I work from home 2-3 days a week, and when I do, she shares time with the other birds in my home office several hours a day. This isn't super interactive time, but there are 2 gyms, and multiple puzzle type toys with treats

We recently had 2 very good days where there was no new chewing, and then I turned around this evening and caught her eating a scab (with a full crop mind you). I stopped her, and went upstairs to change, came down and she was eating another.

She has been sitting on my shoulder for the last of this writing, and has tried to do it twice again, so it doesn't seem to be attention driven.

Quite frankly, I'm out of ideas. I would really apreciate some input.

 

[Mimsy01]

I think I would head back to the vet, mostly based on the smell. The most obvious, maybe due to having open wounds a skin problem, perhaps yeast or some kind of infection.

However, I notice that animals with adrenal issues tend to get that "turned fruit" smell. This would worry me and I'd want a vet's opinion.

Once you are certain there are no health issues, and even if there is for that matter, read through this sticky http://www.parrotforums.com/behavioral/52217-plucking-search-answers.html

Good luck, it must be very heartbreaking to see your feathered friend hurting themselves.

 

[Flboy]

Because of the smell, I agree, run to your vet! I am also bumping this back up so our more experienced folks will see it!

 

[Flboy]

From what you are saying her body language also scares me! She really sounds like she is sick and sliding downhill!

 

[Style]

Thanks for the advice and the sympathy folks. I'll heed the recommendation: I have a vet appointment tomorrow @ 2. I'll share the diagnosis/treatment

 

[riddick07]

If she is opening wounds under her wing they can be very hard to heal. Every scab is itching, every time the wing moves the scab rips, its basically the perfect place for bacteria and infection. We had one at the shelter recently where this happened (I noticed the smell like you have and told the owners of the rescue) and lets say it hasn't been cheap. On the other hand a vet tech fell in love with the bird so maybe it was worth it in the end since he was adopted by her!

 

[Style]

Mimsy01, thank you very much for the article. It was quite well done. Not to call into question the efficacy of the data, but in regards to the referenced/linked articles, they are more than 15 years old. Surely there is more up to date research and documentation? 15 years ago, beepers were cutting edge technology, and dial-up was a luxury. Please tell me our understanding of avian biology has improved a fraction as much???

 

[Giggleagain]

I'm so sorry to hear you are having this problem. My own Quaker Parrot Peabody just bit himself again today, badly He's back to wearing a pressure bandage because he bit half-way through his thigh again and the bleeding wouldn't stop. The hated collar is back on again. He's been so happy and well balanced these past 3 - 4 months, even learned new phrases.... the past 2 weeks of my absence and doing "just the necessary" while searching for a friend's lost bird have caused this latest mutilation episode, I'm sure. I've always thought that Peabody's problem is emotional, now I'm sure of it.

Maybe your fid has an emotional wound also.

 

[Style]

Well, the vet visit was... difficult.

The vet visually confirmed an infection in the mutilated area, and is very concerned about the size of the area, as well as the difficulty of treating the under wing area. She stopped about half way through the sentence "the prognosis isn't good" and instead stated that the "treatment was going to be challenging".

The vet had too many more appointments to start the treatment today, so we're going back first thing in the morning.

If I can remember everything: we started out with a little pain reliever tonight, the treatment is going to begin with debriding and cleaning the wounds while under anaesthesia, antibiotics, and a topical silver sulfa cream.

Also, while under anaesthesia, they're going to take culture of the infected area to make sure the antibiotics are the right ones, a biopsy to test for skin cancer, and a feather and wing disease test.

She'll stay at the vet at least through the day tomorrow for observation, and depending on how the debriding and cleaning go, we'll make decisions on follow-up.

Scariest vet consultation I've ever had. Will fill you folks in when I have more information.

 

[Style]

Giggleagain, I'm very sorry to hear about Peabody situation, that sounds terrible. I wish him the most speedy recovery, and hope that you can find a way to keep this from happening again. After I get through this medical issue, if I come up with any insights, I'll share them. Please share if you have any insights as well

 

[Mimsy01]

I am very sorry to hear that your feathered one is having so much difficulty. I hope you and your vet are able to work together through it and make your grey's life a lot more peaceful and comfortable.

 

[riddick07]

I'm sorry! Sounds very similar to the guy at the shelter. The vet has done laser treatments to help speed the healing and help in general with the healing process. He has been collared the whole time and had a special antibiotic to help fight the bacteria. Hopefully it goes well with your guy too!

 

[Style]

Thanks again to everyone for their sympathy. I'll describe the treatment again briefly, but I'm hoping really for 2 things: some additional understanding of the behaviours, and some suggestions or alternatives to the E collar if I have to resort to that

So first off, the pain medications are doing their job: she's more active, and communicative than she's been in more than a week. She seems stronger too. This all makes me VERY happy.

Seriously: I wanna dance a jig. I may actually even do so!

Blood work didn't show any warning signs, so we don't have to worry about the combination of pain meds and kidney/liver issues.

Current treatment is:

• .2 ml enrofloxacin 2 X a day
• .5 ml matacam every 24 hours
• Topical application of Silver Sulfadiazine cream 2 to 3 times a day

One behaviour I've noticed that puzzles me: when she sits on top of her cage, even if she's not hiding behind something (toys, perches) she faces away from the room. Day or night. Any thoughts on that? Seems odd to me

 

[Style]

Well, the treatment seems to be working:

The vet was unable to debride as much tissue as she wanted, so we are on our way back Tuesday.

Other than that, Smokeys mood is almost the same as it was before, she's not picking at her wounds, though I'm afraid that might be merely because she doesn't like the cream I'm applying. Her appetite is actually better than it was before (I introduced her to chinese veggies in a light low sodium sauce last night, and her crop was the biggest I've seen it since I adopted her).

She is vocalizing much more normaly and is active.

So far, the only downfall seems to be that she's a bit afraid of me: apparently applying cream under wing twice a day, and wrapping her up in a towel to force liquids down her throat aren't her definition of friendship.

We're scheduled to keep this up till Tuesday, when we go in for another dose of anaesthesia, and debriding, and then I'm guessing we'll have to start this all over again.

Thanks everyone for your kind words, and I'll continue to relay progress

 

[Mimsy01]

Thank you for letting us know. I was wondering how you both were doing.

Her relationship with you will mend later, this is for her own good for the time being. If she doesn't mess with it due to taste, i wonder if there is something you can put on her that is safe and would keep her from messing with it after she is done with the cream.

 

[MonicaMc]

Can you mix her oral meds with anything? Such as organic, sugar free fruit juices? Or coconut oil or red palm oil? Or honey? Or yogurt? (best would be greek yogurt with probiotics!) Or anything else she may enjoy the taste of, so taking meds isn't such a horrible task?

 

[Style]

Hey folks,

It's obvious to me that the treatment is continuing to work: she's getting more active, and even though it causes her a little pain, she's actually flapping her wings and is indicating an eagerness to explore. I try to encourage these things, but she seems to have a direct insistence to nest: on the counter top she seeks out the corners, on the floor she heads straight under the couch or chair. So activity: good, root problem not resolved

Had a minor setback today when I had to be in the office all day: she didn't eat any of her "wet" foods (scrambled eggs, corn on the cob, snow peas, carrots, and baked squash). and she visibly expanded her "plucking" area. Her crop was completely empty when I came home. While it's not mutilation, it's still a sign that the root cause has yet to be addressed.

I immediately fixed her a new scrambled egg and gave her some more squash which she ate in addition to some pellets... all of which were available in her cage all day. I'm very confused by this, and I don't think I like where this is going of her only eating, and not self mutilating while I'm around.

I guess we'll figure it out.

Have followup with vet tomorrow: more anaesthesia, more debriding. Will share results.

Mimsy01: Thanks for the reassurance. I know it consciously, but it's hard to face when your bird is screaming at you. I was thinking the same about the cream: if it keeps her from hurting herself, I'll just get a lifetime supply. According to the label there's only like 1% active ingredient. I'll ask the vet if it'd be safe to apply on a regular basis as a preventative.

Myself, I'm a wreck: recovering from a 3 week cold, 2 auto issues, and this is really pushing my limits and my check book. It's worth it when I hear my bird happy, but I could use a little breather.

MonicaMC: I like your thought process, and have been racking my brain for that same solution. I've only had her for about 6 months, and I'm slow to introduce new things. I haven't had any luck with juices, teas, yogurts, cottage cheese, and a host of other mediums that would hide this much medication (and I go very light on anything dairy due to their lactose intolerance). Normally, she eats all or her eggs, but that's scrambled, and I asked the vet, and I can't heat the medication. Also, I'd be left trying to calculate how much of the dose she actually received if she only ate part of what I mixed it with. I like the honey suggestion... I'll try that tomorrow and see what she thinks, but .7ml is a lot of medication to hide

I'd love to hear other ideas and suggestions. The more the better

Thanks in advance

 

[MonicaMc]

Lafebers does make a Medi-berry that you can inject medications into... or at least it soaks up medicine.

However, I think you can only purchase these through an avian vet, and I'd imagine they are rather expensive.



I have heard of some people putting the medicine on toast and feeding that to their birds... or similar things.

 

[Style]

Hi everyone.

MonicaMC, thanks. I stumbled across the toast idea, and have been experimenting with it. I don't normally eat bread, so it's not available to my kids, so it's a learning process. My Amazon Bandit tried to bite me when I offered it to him. lol That's how foreign it is in my house.

We have had a couple of ups and downs, including an emergency vet visit: nothing wrecks a Saturday morning like taking the cover off your girls cage, and seeing blood all over the bottom (I use white butcher paper for liner, so to me it was like an taking the cover off the gym in the movie Carrie.

Even so, while I was freaked the heck out, the vet was very optimistic regarding the tissue, stating it looked better than she'd hoped.

We have done markedly better in the last couple of days, and we have another treatment appointment tomorrow. I know we have a lot of work to do, but I'm very hopeful that the worst is behind us.

One trick I've learned which is probably common sense to the rest of the forum, but I thought I'd share: Smokey was always holding whatever medication I gave her last in her beak until I let go, and then she'd spit it up. So I started priming an extra syringe with water, and gave that to her last. That way she is only spitting up water. Not fancy, but it works.

Thanks,