Flying to Attack

[Moose]

As some of you may know, we are currently on a trial period with our Amazon, Roxy.

Things were fine at first. Definitely bearable. She was and is a goofy and loving bird...to my partner. She's definitely picked her as her person, which I was fine with. It wasn't ideal, but what do you do? She was able to be handled by me and moved from place to place without fear. Now, however, things are different. The longer she's been here, the more things have changed. She is now to a point that she will fly directly for my face and try to attack. If she happens to land on the floor, she'll dart for my feet. I can't come near her without a fanned tail and eyes pinned, beak open. I can't walk in the room without a towel or her training perch. This kind of behavior went on for several years with her previous owner, but she perceived it to be a "man" thing. I don't want to give up, but having never had this severe of an experience with any large parrots before, it's frustrating and hard to tackle. I've dealt with bites and fearful birds. Things have never escalated to the place we are now. I want to give her the benefit of the doubt, but if the fit doesn't work, I don't want to prolong the issue. Despite my efforts with her, I haven't made much headway.

The rescue we applied through and received Roxy from are people I work pretty closely with now. I talk with the adoption coordinator multiple times weekly as we set up home visits for others adopting, etc...so they are aware of these issues and we are holding off, but they are ready to take steps to place her somewhere else if need be. I don't want to have to do that, but some things have to change if she's going to be able to live here comfortably.

Advice is appreciated.

 

[SailBoat]

Amazon 101:

Read the first thread of the Amazon Forum, which is highlighted in light Blue! Learn Amazon Body Language like a first language! Set a chair next to your Amazons cage and read this Thread to your Amazon multiple times per day (aloud). Once you have learned Amazon Body Language you will have a base to work from.

Amazon Rule #1: Its never the fault of the Amazon! Its always the fault of the Human! Always work from this position and you will quickly determine what you are doing wrong and correct it!

Socialize, Socialize, Socialize!

If you are not the Bonded One, be the one that provided the food, water, treats and transportation, etc...! You may never have the same relationship as the Bonded One, but you will have a growing and working relationship!

NEVER give-up on an Amazon!

 

[Moose]

Trust me, I've read it. It's a wealth of information that I am so grateful for. I consult Mark's threads whenever I have a need for behavioral help. Though she's not my first Zon or larger parrot in the house, I've taken the time to read it thoroughly (I go over it about once a week still to make sure there is nothing I've missed). I know when she's anticipating an attack, just not how to deal with it. It just so happens that it's whenever I'm near or walking through. Worse when my partner is in the room, obviously.

I provide food, water, and treats. I talk with her. I can't transport her from place to place currently. Unless she is in the cage, I can't approach her. Sometimes, when she is out of the cage and I'm clear across the room (15+ feet) sitting, she'll still head for me. This is mainly when my partner is nearby, but not always. My attempts to form a relationship have been met with false hope. She'll sometimes take treats from me with a calm demeanor, and other times just being near her is enough for her to have the hunched over, beak open "going to murder you when I get out of here" stance. If she is out though, I'm always met with very defensive posture and it's just a matter of time until she launches. I try to remove myself before she gets to that point, but I don't always make the timeframe.

Perhaps my phrasing in the OP sounded rehome heavy. This is not my intent. I do wish to make this setting work for her. Her previous owner had similar issues for 8 years....also an experienced bird person. Instead of working with her on it, they put her in a separate room and she got limited interaction. I think the owner before just got overwhelmed and no longer wanted to work towards something.

We do want to work on it. I want to make it work...heck, I've been working on this for about a month now with no sign of any headway. I'm not expecting miracles or leaps and bounds of improvement in a month, but some sign of a slightly positive change I feel is a reasonable expectation. This is why the rescue I work with has trial periods in place. I'm willing to extend this foster period as long as I need to so I can make improvements. However, I'm not going to commit to an adoption of a parrot I can't be near without some sign of improvement.

I'm not dismissing any suggestions, and I do greatly GREATLY appreciate your advice. This is only my second Amazon in the house. I've had more interactions with Macaws, who bluff. Amazons don't, so it's harder for me to work through things with her because when she's upset or showing me that something's going to result in my imminent misfortune, she's serious. My first Amazon foster (a long term foster we had several years ago) was a doll, so while I learned what she was telling me, she rarely had anything to say other than "Love me!". I'm going over what I'm doing with her and trying to make positive changes. We aren't planning on throwing in the towel for no reason. I've just exhausted my efforts and need other heads in this with me. I'm working with the knowledge I've acquired and the Body Language thread. This is still where we are.

 

[SailBoat]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you - travel day.

OK, lets start some place and work forward. Day One, your YNA arrives at your home. Is it instance targeting of you? If not when did it start? Also, on that first day was is it love (bond) the first day? If not when was it clear that there was a favorite. Step forward from there and note the development of specific behaviors. Point being, with each behavioral issue, when was it first noticed.

At the same time, starting from now. Look at the Bonded relationship, does your partner enjoy the relationship with the YNA? Is your partner willing to help correct /redirect the Amazon's behaviors? Concept a position that for the Amazon to have interaction with its favored Human, it has to be transport by you.

As a general statement, we have an Amazon here that has been controlling her life and not surprisingly doing a poor job of it! For this to change, the favored Human needs to develop and maintain the boundaries and act as the Flock Leader.

Your Amazon wants to be part of this flock (your home) and be a member. All of the basics that are in place in socializing a Human child need to be at work here.

As a couple, the two of you need to be honest with each other and come to a plan to correct what has been allowed to happen over the last month and work to correct it.

NEVER give-up on the Amazon!

 

[Moose]

It's fine...a bit of delay on my part too. Tough during the work week to step away and find time for myself.

This behavior was noted in her previous home with former owner's husband (it was actually one of the reasons she was relinquished previously)...so who knows how long she has been struggling with this. I'd much rather work through it with her than rehome her. Just struggling because handling these moments is completely new territory.

For us, she was fine at first. She definitely favored my partner immediately, but she was fine for me to handle her. It progressed like that for quite a while. My partner stepped back a bit to let me handle her and focus on building our relationship. Nothing really improved, but it didn't worsen. From day one when we saw who she favored, I was the one to move her from place to place, feed her, treat her, etc.

Flash forward. We took a short trip to see my mother and had a sitter look after her. I got daily updates and she seemed to be doing okay. Definitely a change in routine, but she adapted well and seemed happy. When we returned, we both got the cold shoulder (of course). But after about a week of being back home, she was fine with my partner...and then the targeting began. Flying directly for my face, etc. Each time this has happened, she has been returned to her cage or put in her sleep cage for the night depending on timing.

Trying to forge more bonding experiences with her, but all is met with that begrudging Zon glare. Goofy girl. We just want to help!

 

[Notdumasilook]

I really feel for ya... bigtime... But its unsafe for your AND the bird when that flying attack is going on... I hate to mention this but a temp option to stop it?? A wing clipping of the secondary feathers? I hate to consider that but it is what it is.. its dangerous!!!!!!!!!

 

[SailBoat]

I'm a Never clip wings type, BUT when this type of behavior exists it needs to be curtailed quickly.

Cutting the secondary wing feathers can reduce flight, but a determined Amazon can still get far enough to be in your face before the effects of the clip sets in.

At this point the question is, what is your level of comfort in clipping your own parrot? Personally, with the issue(s) you are currently dealing with I would recommended a trained third party, like a Avian Vet Tech or your Avian Vet. Regarding the type of clip, I would recommend a 'Presentation' style cut, which commonly include the Secondary wing feathers and a few of the body side of the wing's Primary feathers. The goal is to allow the Parrot to launch and begin losing elevation quickly. This allows the Parrot to realize it cannot develop full lift and switches into landing mode.

I historically avoid cutting the Outer Primary feathers since they detract from the overall appears on the Parrot. And, only the better Vet Techs will know what a 'Presentation' cut is. Provides for a greater likelihood of a safe clip!

Once again, I'm on the Never Clip side. However, a Parrot flying into your face is just not safe for anyone!

 

[Anansi]

I think it's great that you are trying so hard to find a solution here rather than just easily giving up. I know it must be tough dealing with a parrot that wants to have a go at your face whenever you walk by. So 'nuff respect for attempting to stick it through.

Sounds like you are already doing a lot of the right things. Some might just take time.

The majority of your one-on-one time should take place when your SO is out of the room. Because when she is in the room, things will automatically shift into rival mode. You want to build trust, first. This will likely have to take place while the bird is in the cage since she's currently looking to eat your face. Find the closest distance possible without triggering her threat display and then grab a seat right there. As SailBoat mentioned, try reading to her and such. As she gets more comfortable, try moving closer without pushing past her comfort zone.

Bribery is also good, here, so continue being her designated treat bearer.

Another thing. Whenever she attacks you, try to the degree possible to have your SO be the one to put her on timeout. And then you can be the one to let her out. Her rescuer, so to speak. The timeout penalty has to be consistent, so that there is no confusion regarding cause and effect, and should last around 5-10 minutes.

And of course, you should continue to lavishly praise any and all good behavior. This should be just as consistent as the timeouts.

I really hope that you're able to have a breakthrough with her. Please continue to keep us updated.

 

[MonicaMc]

Macaws don't "bluff". The behavior of "bluffing" is in fact a form of communication.

Clipping wont stop the behavior. It may slow it down, but it wont stop it. I don't recommend clipping as a form of training.


Have you tried to target train or station train Roxy at all? What about looking to the experts, such as Barbara Heidenreich? Susan Friedman? Lara Joseph? Karen Pryor? Hillary Hankey? And others of their caliber?

 

[Moose]

I have a few books (Barbara Heidenreich included) that I'm referencing. We've worked on target training before this behavior surfaced, but hadn't really begun station training. We've fostered her with intent to adopt since June 3rd.

I'm glad to see that a lot of what is being suggested here are things we are already doing. Glad, and a bit disheartened all at the same time. I've been in close contact with the adoption coordinator at the rescue as well, but he trusts my judgement and is also waiting to see if we are able to reach some sort of comfort zone with her.

As far as clipping, I've done it, but with her I would rather have it done at the vet. Just better for all parties. Any veterinary care during her foster period will have to go through the rescue, but because they are already aware of what we've got going on it shouldn't be an issue.

Thanks to everyone for their help in this matter. I appreciate it.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Yeah I hate clipping wings myself and would be a last resort in your situation. Beats a tennis racket and a stun gun.. (just kidding of course). Moose how far are ya from NC? Didn't see it top right side of your post. Another question.. how many other birds do you have.. is the Amazon the only one?

 

[Moose]

We're in the Triangle. NC my whole life.

She's the only one currently. We may do some fostering or add another to the mix at some point.

 

[Notdumasilook]

Bro u are right up the road from me in Charlotte. In fact... my ancestors owned a lot of land up that way during Civil War era. U might see "Proctor" on some road signs nearby.
PM me if u want...give u my #.
Reason I was asking about a second bird.. sometimes they learn from imitation.. and if they see a behavior of another bird they can imitate. Also.. u have one of the BEST avian vets in Huntersville.. . Lauren Powers. Sounds like that bird was traumatized badly at some point in life. Id like to help if I can... maybe get her involved if u want. Lemme know what ya think.

 

[jenphilly]

Oh I am so gonna get yelled at for my post.. but here it goes...

You are dealing with an Amazon... one of the hot 3... they are not called the hot 3 cause its a cute name or title. Amazons do not respond to training like many other species. Amazons are fiercely loyal to their chosen 'mate' and if your wife is that person, then reality, the best line of training is for her to work with the bird that she is unhappy with the behavior.

We have so many Amazons in the shelter and most shelters across the country have an abundance of amazons due to this very natural behavior. Amazons hold a grudge, Amazons don't forget, Amazons are not parrots you can often win over with bribery, target training or anything that may work with about every other species.

When an Amazon bonds and picks their person, you need to find a way to work with and around that. I post and joke about the evil green monster that lives in my home. Kelly is my daughter's YNA. He was 33 when he met Victoria, he was fairly social and could be handled by most people prior to bonding to Victoria. Now its not inaccurate to label him as vicious to anyone else who tries to handle him. Even to move him from point A to her. But he is like the most affectionate, devoted, loyal and loving best friend with her (tho typical Amazon, there is the displacement bite behavior).

Kelly does not yet fly, tho he has taken a jump, and he will literally stalk across the floor and has even chased my husband up the stairs to attack him. Kelly has been with us for over 2 years, he has no interest in taking treats or food from anyone but Victoria and there is no sitting and talking to him to try to make friends. He has his Victoria and everyone can die a slow bloody death.

We respect how he feels and his devotion to Victoria, and she actively will call him or redirect him when he becomes focused on a plan to cause the untimely death of someone else. When he starts the stalking, Victoria calling his name usually gets him to redirect to her and he'll turn his energy into making his way over to her.

Kelly does not fly, tho we've had the jump behavior. But for safety, if an amazon does a flying attack, clip the wings. Many an amazon would probably still be in their home if the family had clipped wings and prevented the ability to fly attack and the chosen person worked on redirecting attention to them.

We do have amazons at the shelter that are deemed too dangerous to be adopted including one that has aggressively bitten several people including one lady who tried working with her and took a bit that needed surgery to repair a tendon in the hand. So, sometimes just like people, we need to respect that a bird has their opinion and likes / dislikes. I am a huge fan of Lara Joseph, but also have so much respect for her for acknowledging and having the logic that nothing works for every bird.

If its feasible, can your wife socialize and work with the bird when your not readily around or in range of being attacked? I'm not a clipping fan, my cockatoo and macaw both are fully flighted and I encourage them to fly, nothing is healthier, but for the safety of your face, sometimes its a matter of clipping the wings or a bird sitting in a rescue because of a behavior like this.

I think most people can share knowing a bird that hates them... My husband has the green Senegal that hates me, and I am the person who cleans his cage, does the majority of food and water, hand out the fresh foods and treats and I even take the little turd out for him to hang out on the java tree in the window when my husband is at work. He will let me scratch his head when he wants his head scratched, but he literally will tear me apart if I ask him to step up. I have a bite healing as I type from where the little bugger got me thru the cage the other night when doing night time waters / checking bowls. The back of my hand was within range of sticking that beak out and grabbing skin and he didn't miss the chance.

Sometimes its just a fact of life.... I hope you can find a way to make things work in the home, sounds like this amazon adores your wife and will be a fantastic companion for her.

Go ahead everyone, give me heck... but I'm speaking from experience not only as a fellow victim of the wrong side of an amazon, but also the entirely too many amazons associated current and past with A Helping Wing.

 

[Notdumasilook]

I guess my Amazon is a very special bird indeed. He holds no grudges and tho bonded with me will actually climb on wifeys shoulder and preen her ear. It took a while for me to cultivate this dynamic but I managed it. There was a time he would go after her when I left the room and still on occasion that switch gets flipped but its increasingly rare. He spends a good part of his "free" time sitting beside her and talking to her. And yeah.. rescue centers are full of birds that don't attain the level of "sweet" my Cookie has. I wish I had more room, I would take a number of them in... no problem.

 

[Notdumasilook]

hmm tried an edit and tab went goofy...

 

[jenphilly]

I guess my Amazon is a very special bird indeed. He holds no grudges and tho bonded with me will actually climb on wifeys shoulder and preen her ear. It took a while for me to cultivate this dynamic but I managed it. There was a time he would go after her when I left the room and still on occasion that switch gets flipped but its increasingly rare. He spends a good part of his "free" time sitting beside her and talking to her. And yeah.. rescue centers are full of birds that don't attain the level of "sweet" my Cookie has. I wish I had more room, I would take a number of them in... no problem.

There are some awesome Amazons... we have had several. We even had an Amazon named Kiwi that had deformed feet, he was like a mother hen. During a family visiting a conure, Kiwi was out with us (he had a little pillow and blanket and would hang out on the table). Kiwi immediately showed an interest in the young son and literally had to keep tabs on him. Kiwi loved everyone and anyone. He is one of the only Amazons we joke that we felt neded to be in a family setting, so he had several kids to keep tabs on. He was placed with a family known to the shelter with a few kids, and to this day, Kiwi is still the mother hen (or would that be father hen).

We also had the most beautiful blue front named Sweetie Monster. She adored most women, would give anyone a kiss who asked. Jeanne (shelter owner) and I joked that we should just keep her and have joint custody, 3 months with Jeanne, 3 months with me

And right now we have the most awesome pair of DYH, they will step up for truly anyone. They are a bit timid about head scratches, but their personalities I definitely believe that in a home, they will easily learn to trust and become wonderful family members.

So not all Amazons are single person birds, not all are dangerous to all but their given person. My point was only that sometimes you have to accept if that is who they are. Victoria's evil Kelly spent 21 years living in a small travel size cage with a single perch, he has some arthritis and spots on his feet from sitting for 21 years on a dowel perch (and living in a home where everyone smoked). So, honestly if he's happy having his beloved Victoria and hates the rest of us, after 21 years living you know where, we can all accept we have to work around him being possessive and protective of his beloved mom. That is my only point and suggestion, just like there are people we meet that no matter how hard we try we can't make ourselves love them, I can accept a parrot feeling that way!

 

[GaleriaGila]

Wonderful advice above from some very seasoned bird people.

I'll just add that my bird attacked my husband in that way, flying for his face or toes when exposed. I *did* resort to wing-clipping, on and off for maybe 2-4 years. At some point at around age 5-6, he seemed either to have learned his lesson or maybe just accepted his rival, and he was able to stay flighted after that.
Of course this has allowed his behavior to be very independent... but I just tolerate it. Every room is bird-proof as possible, and he prefers to fly around to be with me (sometimes perching on me or a perch. When it's time to go to the cage, I toss his fave treat (a big juicy green chile) in and he hops in after it. Catching him in flight is impossible; so is wrestling him off my shoulder, so we do it HIS way...
If clipping wings means saving the bird's home, I'd do it.
BEST of luck! I see how hard you are trying.

 

[Notdumasilook]

My thoughts as well. With that kind of aggression from a parrot someone is going to get hurt. I would give enuff clipping so the bird doesn't get lift but doesn't turn in to a brick either. Then I would keep a T-perch handy .. one with 3-4 ft reach to fend of the attacks, and if the situation presented itself assert myself as boss bird in the pecking order. Hopefully that makes things safer for all. Beats trying to rehome the bird.