Flight training without tail feathers??

[chris-md]

Parkers at it again, full barbering mode. Like he did last year, he just today chewed and barbered away ALL his tail feathers...*audible sigh*

He flew to me a couple times this evening already, and seemed to have decent control. But that was before I noticed the lack of feathers. We're full on in the throes of flight training.

My question is: should I stop all flight training until new feathers grow in? Or am I ok to continue doing short distance flight (up to 5feet/2m)?

 

[SailBoat]

Parkers at it again, full barbering mode. Like he did last year, he just today chewed and barbered away ALL his tail feathers...*audible sigh*

He flew to me a couple times this evening already, and seemed to have decent control. But that was before I noticed the lack of feathers. We're full on in the throes of flight training.

My question is: should I stop all flight training until new feathers grow in? Or am I ok to continue doing short distance flight (up to 5feet/2m)?

You clearly want to continue Flight training! Tail Feathers are a very important part of the Parrots overall Flight Structure as they greatly enhance take-off, landings and at speed turning. That said, not having 'any' Tail Feathers will not stop Packer from being able to fly only reduce the high-end, high speed turns and quick accent /decent style take-offs /landings.

You will note that Parker will need to flap harder and scoop the Wing Feathers deeper to a greater level to increase the compression of air under his body.

From a health standpoint, it places greater demand of the Chest Muscles, but they are designed for long extended flight, so you will not be overworking those Muscles. Keeping working him, but as always it is a step, by step process, i.e. not shifting from one meter to 50 meters in a week. He needs to work to increase his abilities, no crawl to full out running.

 

[chris-md]

That was the quality answer I was hoping for, thank you. Very clear.

It's less about being really driven flight train as it is about maintaining our normal routine. This training has become such an integral part of our bonding on a almost daily basis, and trying to see if this is cause for disrupting our routine. I may keep it to short distances. On his most motivated day he won't go more than 10 feet. So if I keep it to about half that distance we should be good. My big problem is getting him to come right away on command rather than repeating myself five or 10 times anyway.

 

[SailBoat]

That was the quality answer I was hoping for, thank you. Very clear.

It's less about being really driven flight train as it is about maintaining our normal routine. This training has become such an integral part of our bonding on a almost daily basis, and trying to see if this is cause for disrupting our routine. I may keep it to short distances. On his most motivated day he won't go more than 10 feet. So if I keep it to about half that distance we should be good. My big problem is getting him to come right away on command rather than repeating myself five or 10 times anyway.

If you are out to a bit over 3 meters, I would only cut that back at most half and then work it back out over a couple of weeks at most. The strength is there already its only the need to build in a comfort level for both of you. You more than him.

 

[wrench13]

Chris sorry to hear Parker is barbering again, thats got to be demoralizing. Any idea why he does it? Are the tail feathers the only ones he does it to?

But I am glad some one else besides Salty and I know the benefits of nightly traiing to build bonding, its mostly why I do it with Salty and his tricks. I could care less about how well he does, I just like the intimacy it builds and the trust between us.

 

[chris-md]

Thanks al! Can I be honest with ya though? After a couple years, it becomes routine. Seeing him shewig on a feather is like watching him chew on the couch: you stop it and move on.

He came to me a barberer; whatever the cause it happened in one of his previous lives. The underlying cause, whatever it may be, I guarantee has been addressed. We're dealing with habit at this point that I'm not sure can be broken. I've tried everything that was different from prior owners: more out of cage time (he's out of cage when we are home), he's on a fresh fruit diet, he's in a calm environment (male ekkies esspcially can be sensitive to bsuy households, easily stressed), tried humidifier, and continued the previous owners experiment of using a macaw sized cage.

I even tried a hormonal suppression implant in case it is hormonal barbering. There is a pattern: he only does it during the cooler months. He lets hem grow back in July and leaves therm be until December or so. Typically that would be a dry air thing but humidifier didn't fix it.

So, at this point, I have a bird who apparently prefers to remain in underwear only. Doesn't like full clothing. And I am THIIIIIIS close to accepting it - as my amazing avian vet says "there are worse things than having a naked bird". I won't stop searching for new solutions but I've almost exhausted all possibilities known to me.

 

[Anansi]

Sorry he's barbering again, Chris. I love that you keep searching for answers, though. I think of behavioral disorders like Parker's (yes, I think you're likely right about the initial cause having already been dealt with and that you are now dealing with ingrained, habitual behavior) as situations where you just have to keep throwing things at the wall to see what sticks. It's possible you may find the answer one day. It's also possible you never will. But it's the fact you keep trying your best that makes you such a great parront.

As for your question on flight training, I agree 100% with the excellent advice given by Steven. I definitely wouldn't stop flight training. One thing to consider, though. Since he, at times, is already a reluctant flier, this tendency will likely increase while he is missing those tail feathers. This is because flight will require more effort... which will make him more likely to say, "Meh", and decide it's not worth all the trouble. (Kind of like me with crab in the shell. Too much work for the payoff! Hahaha!) So initially decreasing the flight distance is a good idea. You might also want to initially decrease the duration of the training session. Just be more aware of when his interest begins to wane. And try to schedule the sessions for when he is at his hungriest. Like a half hour before his evening meal or something.

I think this is important because, like a good general, you don't want to give commands that won't be followed. You don't want him to ever get comfortable shrugging off your directions. Know what I mean?

During the few months that Jolly had injured a few of his flight feathers I'd gone through something similar. He just had to work harder to fly without those feathers, and sometimes he was less inclined to do our usual drills as a result. (Just to be clear, I wasn't giving him flight drills while he was in pain. Just looked back over what I'd written. Lol! It's just that he'd chewed off the flight feathers that were bothering him after the injury.) So this was how I worked through it. It worked, and soon enough I had him back to his accustomed distances and training times.

Unexpected benefit? Because he had to work harder during the time he was missing those feathers, he'd grown even stronger by the time they grew back in. Now he's a more powerful flier than before.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Thanks al! Can I be honest with ya though? After a couple years, it becomes routine. Seeing him shewig on a feather is like watching him chew on the couch: you stop it and move on.

He came to me a barberer; whatever the cause it happened in one of his previous lives. The underlying cause, whatever it may be, I guarantee has been addressed. We're dealing with habit at this point that I'm not sure can be broken. I've tried everything that was different from prior owners: more out of cage time (he's out of cage when we are home), he's on a fresh fruit diet, he's in a calm environment (male ekkies esspcially can be sensitive to bsuy households, easily stressed), tried humidifier, and continued the previous owners experiment of using a macaw sized cage.

I even tried a hormonal suppression implant in case it is hormonal barbering. There is a pattern: he only does it during the cooler months. He lets hem grow back in July and leaves therm be until December or so. Typically that would be a dry air thing but humidifier didn't fix it.

So, at this point, I have a bird who apparently prefers to remain in underwear only. Doesn't like full clothing. And I am THIIIIIIS close to accepting it - as my amazing avian vet says "there are worse things than having a naked bird". I won't stop searching for new solutions but I've almost exhausted all possibilities known to me.

I woke up yesterday thinking about feather plucking and it's been on my mind. I wondered if there was a similar etiology for restless leg syndrome. Maybe there is something causing a creepy feeling that is relieved by chewing or plucking. In humans it can be caused by problems with iron processing, which affects dopamine production...I'm oversimplifying...but couldn't there be a neurological or as-yet unknown metabolic cause?

You said Parker leaves his feathers alone until winter...do you think maybe the shafts dry out and become more fun to snap? Maybe in the summer they are soft or flexible like stale crackers and in the winter they make a satisfying crunch, like a potato chip? Maybe the humidifier isn't enough to soften them or maybe it's just the feather reaching a certain age. Is there any way to test that, something that would soften the shafts just a bit without weakening them....feathers are mostly keratin, aren't they? I've seen lots of products for keeping fingernails flexible but they aren't anything that I'd put on a feather, mostly oils...

 

[Anansi]

I woke up yesterday thinking about feather plucking and it's been on my mind. I wondered if there was a similar etiology for restless leg syndrome. Maybe there is something causing a creepy feeling that is relieved by chewing or plucking. In humans it can be caused by problems with iron processing, which affects dopamine production...I'm oversimplifying...but couldn't there be a neurological or as-yet unknown metabolic cause?

I had much the same thought in the wake of the issue that popped up with Maya several months back that I'd talked about in this thread: http://www.parrotforums.com/eclectus/61889-okay-let-s-talk-abv-pdd-toe-tapping.html
I won't go into the details here, as it's all covered extensively in that thread, but basically a flare up of a nervous system issue was causing a tingling in her feet that drove her to gnaw at them until they were raw and abraded. Long story short, nerve-pain relief meds eased the tingling for the duration of the flare-up... which in turn halted the gnawing before it could become an ingrained habit. Thankfully, once the flare-up died down, the meds were no longer needed.

My thought was, if that nerve tingling sensation could drive Maya to scrape her legs raw, isn't it conceivable, and even probable, that a similar sensation in one of the feathered areas of the body might cause plucking or even mutilation in another bird? Left undiagnosed, such a bird might continue to pluck or mutilate in a search for relief.

I don't know if this scenario fits Parker's particular situation, as Chris has never mentioned hi seeming particularly itchy or anything, but I just wanted to say that I believe your thought has merit.

 

[chris-md]

Stephen and Steven, you are the best

Kentuckienne - I'm back and forth on your proposition. Where I fall with a nervous disorder is not likely. The key here is the seasonality of the barbering a devoid disprder would theoretically be capable of manifesting at any time, not just in the winter. Drying of the sheath could be a contributing factor. But I've used many tricks to divert his attention without success. So whether it's just plain fun, or a developed habit from a previous trauma, we are back to square one: he has a habit that likely can't be broken.

 

[Kentuckienne]

Stephen and Steven, you are the best

Kentuckienne - I'm back and forth on your proposition. Where I fall with a nervous disorder is not likely. The key here is the seasonality of the barbering a devoid disprder would theoretically be capable of manifesting at any time, not just in the winter. Drying of the sheath could be a contributing factor. But I've used many tricks to divert his attention without success. So whether it's just plain fun, or a developed habit from a previous trauma, we are back to square one: he has a habit that likely can't be broken.

I hope I'm not hijacking your thread. It's just that your post came right when I was beginning to research my ideas. You have a better background for thinking about this than I do, so do you mind if I throw out some more questions?

Google offers me up various reports indicating that RLS (restless leg syndrome) might have a seasonal component, with peaks in the summer months: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24152798

And some reports that high or low vitamin D levels may play a part: https://www.vitamindcouncil.org/vitamin-d-and-restless-leg-syndrome-where-does-the-research-stand/

A report suggesting a connection with RLS and antihistamine use: https://go.aastweb.org/Resources/PDF/A2Zzz18_2/Histamine.pdf

And various anecdotal reports connecting worsening RLS and wheat consumption.

Looking for a pattern....parrots don't take antihistamines, but histamine levels might fluctuate during the year, being lower in the winter when there are fewer airborne allergens, so if low histamine levels play a part there could be a connection.

The vitamin D info is all over the place, with some studies saying searches for RLS peak in summer, but also research connecting RLS with lower vit D. Could it be that low levels of vitamin D are implicated, but people take antihistamines more in the summer, which overwhelm any vit D correlation?

Some anecdotal evidence claims eliminating wheat from the diet has cured cases of RLS. I'm generally skeptical of these claims, because it's such a fad to be gluten intolerant or whatever, but there are genuine cases of people who produce unusual proteins when consuming certain foods, including wheat, which can affect neurological function.

Other research implicates metabolic processes relating to iron utilization and dopamine levels. I understand that clinically, it's important to differentiate between RLS and neuropathy, and it's not possible to ask the bird about the relevant symptoms.

Most of the studies I found said that RLS does not lesson over time without treatment.

Is it possible to make useful conjectures?

Once a parrot starts plucking or barbering, they tend to keep it up. This could be because it's become a habit, or it could be because of some continuing neurological stimulation/irritation.

Metabolic deficiencies can be idiopathic, but there is often a strong genetic component, some defect in a gene. I'm not aware of any data or study that looks to see if birds that pluck have parents or siblings who pluck, but it could be that a plucker might be sent to a breeder if the owner can't stand to see it. Also, don't some species such as Quakers, greys and cockatoos have a reputation for plucking? Plucking can begin in any parrot, but there could be more than one cause. I have a relative with E-D hypermobility syndrome, and there are multiple genes involved in the different flavors of E-D. Some require both parents to have the gene, some only one.

I read that RLS also improves with activity and stimulation. Parrots also do better with more activity and stimulation, and sometimes this alone is sufficient but not always. I am sure Parker does not lack for attention or toys.

One thing that bothers me is that parrots don't seem to display this behavior in the wild. It seems that if it were purely biochemical or genetic, it would appear at least some of the time. Does it only affect captive birds? Does it only affect birds that are kept indoors out of unfiltered natural light? Is the syndrome more prevalent in captive bred birds than in wild caught birds? Is there some infectious vector circulating through the captive population? I could see that...birds come from breeders or pet stores, share cages, humans could carry bacteria or viruses in from outside. Maybe it's a Typhoid Mary kind of thing, where some or even the majority of birds can tolerate it without problem?

Anansi, this is like what you wrote a while back, about a neurological basis for toe-tapping and feather disorders. It's not a far stretch from toe-tapping to RLS. And if a feather disorder can be linked to toe-tapping, it's not a stretch to connect plucking. I don't know of any research, it's pure speculation. It can be difficult for a lay person to find good research. I know that I can wade through pages of crap and then find a good scholarly paper on like page ten of search results.

If the problem has become a habit, even habits can be changed. Say there's a threshold, where with a combination of biological and environmental triggers the plucking behavior starts. If the biological contributors can be ameliorated, is it possible that sufficient environmental changes could push the bird back over the threshold, say instill a different habit that isn't compatible with plucking so the bird can't do both at the same time? What kind of new habit might that be?

Are there any things worth trying? Change the diet to remove wheat or other non-native elements? Don't some birds get vitamin D by grooming their feathers, so if they have fewer feathers they'd get less D, vicious cycle? Do vets check vitamin D levels or know what is optimum? Are there any histamine increasing foods or dopamine increasing foods?

There has got to be a solution for this syndrome. It's just that parrot owners aren't usually scientists and most scientists are probably not parrot owners. But there is enough overlap. Is it a matter of funding? Are any veterinary universities doing research?