Finding a Cuban Amazon

[trish5909]

Hi there, I've just joined the forum but I wish it were under happier circumstances. I'm a new parrot owner; my husband and I have decided to start breeding them (we own a farm and are experienced at breeding chickens, cattle and dogs).

We have started acquiring parrots and bought a beautiful pair of young adult Cuban Amazons. They stayed with the breeder while we prepared the aviary for them. Last week the male flew through an open door at the breeder's house. I've spent the week contacting avian vets, humane societies and putting up posters in the neighborhood but no luck. It has turned very cold and we're due for a snowstorm today so I'm heartbroken and have lost hope.

I'm still going to register with any missing bird organization I can but feel my chances of getting him back are almost non-existent.

Does anyone know where I might find another breeding male for the female I have left? I will do any paperwork and jump through whatever administrative hoops are necessary!

 

[SailBoat]

Sorry, but I will be adding to your bad news!

I am not sure what your Breeder told you or did not tell you, but getting two young Parrots from a Breeder for breeding cost you a bunch of time and money! Any honest Breeder of Amazons for Breeding should have told you that it can be years before young Amazons are ready to be successful. That Breeder should have told you that you need to Buy a Proven Pair!!! With several YEARS of successful hatches!!!

Just because you buy a pair (Male and Female DNA Proven) doesn't mean that they will pair-up! Or, be successful in laying, let alone be success in hatching healthy chicks. Breeding Parrots is nothing like Chickens and not even close to any of the other animals that you have Breed in the past. Yup, there are some things that are kind of alike, but not much.

All Breeders of Amazons know that it can take years for the pair to accept each other (with luck). Addition years at trying, then additional years to have success at laying and if lucky, a few years after that to hatch with success.

And, what is above is the easy part!

Stop buying Parrots until you get all the information that is really needed!

Read and think about the above information. I have to get back to work, so, I will come back on later!

Sorry for the reality check!

 

[SailBoat]

Well, now lets talk about what happens after you have a successful Hatch. Now What? Mid to Large Parrots takes weeks of 'hand' feeding before they can be weaned (several more weeks) onto solid food. Oh by the way, the feeding is multiple times during the day and also the night! The special formula needs to be mixed just right, not too runny and not too solid, not to hot but not to cold. Feeding is done with a Feeding Tube, set the tube in the chick wrong and it may kill the chick. Get any of this wrong and the chick can die or its a mad dash to an 'Avian' Vet.

Did the Breeder that sold you this pair cover any of this with you? For that matter, did you tell the Breeder that you planned on Breeding this pair. Oh, by the way, if they had been brother and sister, you had been set-up to fail!

If the Breeder knew that you had planned to breed this pair and did not cover any of this with you - get your money back!

Very sorry for the loss of the Parrot!

 

[BirdSquawk]

So sorry to hear about the loss of your parrot, I hope they are found safe and sound.
Have you had any experience owning parrots? They are very different from chickens, much more delicate and complex to breed. Some things to consider about breeding parrots:

-How much money are you willing to put into them? Between wellness checks for the parents/young, specialized diets and supplies for enclosures, it will be several years until you turn a profit (if the birds actually begin breeding straight away, which is rare) Which brings me to me next question...

-Why do you want to breed parrots? If you look you'll find there are WAY to many homeless parrots in the world, are you really dedicated to making sure the babies find lifelong homes? And what if you can't find homes for them, where will they stay?

I don't disagree with breeding parrots, but it would be a shame if you accidentally found yourself in debt with too many birds to handle. If you have never bred parrots before and really want the experience, maybe start with budgies or cockatiels, they're much more manageable.

 

[trish5909]

Hey there, thanks for all the information and concern that we were being taken advantage of and going into this totally naive. We've actually been researching for a couple of years and we've been to visit a number of breeders to see their operations over the past several months. We've also talked to avian vets. So we are going into this with our eyes WIDE open and realize that it may take at least a couple of years before we have babies. (If it was easy, everyone would be doing it!)

I have experience syringe feeding newborn puppies around the clock and know how exhausting and all-consuming that can be. I've watched and participated in feeding parrot babies, too (it's quicker than with puppies...)

We are committed to doing everything right -- from constructing several smaller buildings with only a few pairs each to improve biosecurity & air quality, separate ventilation, large flight cages (4x8 or 4x12 for Amazons) with outdoor access in summer. So far we have a mix of proven pairs and bonded pairs. The Cuban Amazon that is lost is 5 yrs old and has been with the female for a couple of years already.

Speaking of cage size, we have been told by a couple of breeders that our cages might be too big for successful breeding, with too many distractions. We are now wondering if we should go smaller for the conures. They are in 2x4x4 cages with a couple of toys each. They don't seem to be using the whole space and seem to be sticking to one corner most of the time.

Back to the Cubans ... is there any chance of finding another male anytime soon?

 

[trish5909]

I can see that there are lots of birds for rehoming -- it seems to happen when they become sexually mature and their owner can't handle them. For my dogs, I have a paragraph in my contract that states that if for any reason, the owners can't keep the dog, he or she is to go back to me rather than to a shelter and I will find another home. I would do the same thing for the parrots. I would never want to see them abandoned or passed from person to person. I also think that people need to be educated before taking a parrot home so they know what to expect as the bird grows and matures. I sometimes spend hours with people before they take a puppy home; going over everything from how to potty train to proper grooming and dental care and they can call me for advice any time. It is also a breeder's responsibility to make sure that the animal and family are a good fit for each other (temperament and lifestyle) and only a thorough interview can help with that.

 

[SailBoat]

I can see that there are lots of birds for rehoming -- it seems to happen when they become sexually mature and their owner can't handle them. For my dogs, I have a paragraph in my contract that states that if for any reason, the owners can't keep the dog, he or she is to go back to me rather than to a shelter and I will find another home. I would do the same thing for the parrots. I would never want to see them abandoned or passed from person to person. I also think that people need to be educated before taking a parrot home so they know what to expect as the bird grows and matures. I sometimes spend hours with people before they take a puppy home; going over everything from how to potty train to proper grooming and dental care and they can call me for advice any time. It is also a breeder's responsibility to make sure that the animal and family are a good fit for each other (temperament and lifestyle) and only a thorough interview can help with that.

You do understand just how odd this all sounds, wonderful, but odd. That's not because of what you are doing, but the fact that near none of those that show-up are thinking anything more than how much money they are going to make, how did you put it, oh ya: "If is was easy everyone would be doing it" group. Because they do and the horror stories are near endless!

So based on that, hope you can understand when 98% are not even thinking about anything beyond sticking two parrots together and getting chicks. You are a very rare breath of air in a smoke stack of black ink.

You're statements about educating the new owner, taking back parrots likens back to the earlier times when babies would not be releases until they had been fully fledged and socialized! In today's world, you and the few other good breeders are rare oddities in the mess that breeding has become. A world of Parrot Mills pumping out multiple hatches in a singe year of the un-weaded mid-to-large Parrots and then selling them to new parrot people with a ten minute quick lessen on how to tube feed! Thus letting that breeder maximize their profits on a parrot that will likely die within a couple of days or a week of starvation.

Cubans are not overly common and the number of breeders is very limited. I know of one breeding pair and they are very old and have not had a successful hatch in the last couple of years. The male had been ill and has recovered. They are hoping maybe this year. They are also looking to replace theirs and have not had any success. I will speak to them and let them know that you're looking also.

 

[Kentuckienne]

just curious.. why did you pick the cuban amazon? They are listed as near-threatened, with significant restrictions on international trade, and from what I understand are very difficult to breed. Aggressive toward mates and toward chicks. As a result they are expensive. Seems like a very difficult parrot to begin a breeding program with.

 

[trish5909]

I have a couple of pairs of proven conures for starters. I didn't really pick the Cubans but had the opportunity to get them from a breeder who was downsizing and I just couldn't pass them up. But our aviary wasn't set up for them yet, which is why they were still with him when the male escaped. I'm particularly interested in taking them on as a "project" exactly because they are so endangered. It would be especially rewarding to be able to breed these beautiful birds. I am aware that they are aggressive etc. which is why so many breeders avoid them. I had one breeder tell me he stopped breeding Amazons because he was tired of getting head-bombed every time he went into his aviary! He said if I was going to try breeding them, I'd need a football helmet. Not only did that NOT put me off, it made me want them even more! So we are building very large flight cages for them and I've had an apartment-style nest box made with 2 entrances and 2nd compartment for the female to escape if necessary. I've read that some of the flight feathers can be trimmed off the male during breeding season to give the female a chance to get away. We're almost all ready for them and now we don't have the male Cuban any more. I can hardly stand the thought of him outside with the temperatures falling way below freezing the past few days. I hope that somehow someone found him and he is safe inside somewhere...

We also got a pair of Magnas and I'm having a ton of fun with them. They are in a room by themselves and have quite a few words. In the past month, they've actually started picking up a few words from me. I always knock at the door and say "knock knock". Then I say "Come In!!" before I enter and they are actually starting to say it with the same tone I use. The male tolerates my presence while I'm feeding them and I usually stay and watch them for a little while until he starts to hiss at me and let me know my presence is no longer required. Too funny!

So, I'm going to illustrate my philosophy with a bit of a long story. We've had a lot of animals, many different types, all with their own unique personalities and traits. My 10-year-old daughter currently has a paint horse who takes great care of her & is the safest and smartest horse she's ever ridden. But when we got him, he attacked the other horses and even bit me when I was carrying some hay. Real Jekyll & Hyde. We eventually realized all his issues centered around food, as if he'd been deprived at some point in his life. So now he is fed separately, in a stall and we don't go near him carrying hay etc. Problem solved and he's the sweetest boy we could have hoped for. What I"m saying is every animal has their issues and quirks. You need to understand them and work with them to either eliminate the problem or minimize the risk. If we'd gotten rid of him early on we would have lost a fantastic horse for my daughter and I'm glad we gave him a chance. So I'm not worried about the Amazons. I'll treat them with respect and find a way to make it work.

 

[SailBoat]

You should be aware of the Brampton Mall. When I was visiting customers in the greater Toronto area, I would stay at the Holiday Inn next to that Mall and later the Holiday Inn Express Brampton. Anyway, there is a Pet Store in that Mall that I have been visiting for years! I had always been impressed with the quality of the young Parrots they have. Never came across one that was not fully weaned and socialized. They could possible be a likely outlet for you, since they seem to be on the same wave length.

You got Magnas!!! Next to Mealy's they top my 'would love to have list!. Since getting a pair of Cubans may become a long term effort, consider Mealy's. Yes, they are Big Sweethearts, but are also endangered, and like the Magnas, have a following.

If you have not read the two Highlighted in light blue 'Sticky's' at the top of the Amazon Forum, please do so! The Sticky titled: Understanding Body Language is a foundation understanding of what Amazons are communicating with their body language! It is so important, that I recommend anyone with an Amazon re-read it at least a couple times each year. The other can provide you information and also, be a source for your future customers.

The body language Thread will provide you great insight as to what those Magnas' have been trying to tell you! FYI: Pull up a chair and read a loud to them, Amazon's love to be read too and while you are learning Amazon, they are developing a greater comfort with you. Kind of a Win - Win!

A solid relationship with the Parents may just get you to a point that you are 'allowed' to join feed and wean the babies - goes a long way to handling and socializing the babies!

Your work at developing verbal communication with your Parrots will provide you access that others would believe not possible! In their natural ranges, families of Amazons are in constant communication! So, keep-up the communication that is specific to what you are doing. Watch and listen for their communications back to you. You have already determined when the Male has had enough of you! There is far more sounds that body language presentations that is well worth learning!

Words to live by:
It is Never the fault of the Amazon! It is always the fault of the Human! By basing all interaction from the vantage point, you will quickly determine what you are dong wrong and can correct it quickly!

Only Good Things Happen when Humans are around.

Enjoy!!!

 

[trish5909]

Thank you for the information; I will visit that pet store which is less than an hour away. BTW the lost Cuban went missing in Brampton as well so maybe I can post a sign at the pet store. I'll also check out the Mealys.

I really appreciated your insights. I have been waffling back and forth about how much time I should spend with my Magnas. I am told by breeders that I need to be at arm's length in order for them to have a solid relationship with each other and to not cause jealousy that might make the male harm the female. It's so hard! I do what I need to and stay until I think I have worn out my welcome. When they are in a talkative mood, I talk back to them. But when the male starts fanning out his tail, pinning me and hissing, I say bye bye and leave.

 

[trish5909]

Thanks for the tip ... Brampton is less than an hour from me so I will look for the pet store in the mall near the hotel. I am thinking perhaps it's the Bramalea City Centre? Coincidentally, it was in Brampton where my Cuban went missing so perhaps I can post up a sign in the shop.

I'll also check out the Mealys ... haven't heard anything about them before. And I would love to be able to have a relationship with my parrots if possible. I've been told by breeders I need to stay at arm's length so as not to interfere with the parrots' relationship and to avoid any jealousy that might result in injury to the female. Which is why when they are talkative, I spend time talking with them and when the male starts to hiss, pin me and fan his tail feathers, I say "bye bye" and leave. Sometimes they seem really happy to see me and get very animated & talkative. But sometimes the atmosphere is totally different. I totally believe in your "words to live by" It's up to us to figure out what's needed and make the necessary adjustments.

 

[SailBoat]

I have always believe that it was the Brampton Mall. The Holiday Inn had closed several years ago. I will double check my connect book to double check it for you!

Sadly, Henpecked has not been as active on this Forum of late. His approach to Breeding is like the temple to what you are targeting. Try contacting one of the Super Mods to see if they can connect you.

FYI: Take a look at this link: STOP: New CITES Reg. Will Change Transport Requirements over State Lines

You will find that CiTES will require that you develop a document file for each baby of a 'classified' parrot. IMHO, I would do it for all your Parrot born on or after 2, January 2017. And, I would do it for all the Parrots that you have hatch since you started.

 

[trish5909]

Hmmm, sounds a lot like the paperwork I have to complete for every litter of puppies -- you can't get away from the paperwork! But I can see that traceability would be important and I'm hoping that if I register the lost Cuban's band info maybe, just maybe he will turn up some day. Also, sorry for the duplicate posts -- I'm still trying to figure out how this all works and couldn't see what I wrote last night so I thought it didn't go through. I guess writing this way just sends it as a private message whereas Post Reply adds it to my thread??

 

[YNAfan]

I think choosing Amazon parrot for first time parrot breeding project is very bad idea. Best advice always for new breeders is to start with hardy and easy to handle parrots. Lovebirds or Indian ring neck is good starting point. Once you successfully breed them and hand feed their young. You can start your artificial brooder lessons and experiencing different hand feeding tools and formulas. Amazon and many large parrots species are tough to breed based on the known fact of their complex nature and pair compatibility issues. Male Amazon parrots are prone to hormonal aggressiveness upon sexual maturity which leads to male kills female or severely hurt the female. If you lack the actual experience it is good to have someone take care of your collection for you. Experience for such large parrots takes time and you wont know all information soon enough to handle Amazon parrot. Another point is why experiencing with Appendex 1 Cites parrots which also very expensive birds if you can get the needed knowledge with much cheaper alternative . I know my suggested approach here might sound boring but its the right way to your goal. If you start fast and unprepared you will waste time and money and makes you parrot hater. Please reconsider the steps process of building the knowledge instead of start now and ask questions later approach.

 

[SailBoat]

I think choosing Amazon parrot for first time parrot breeding project is very bad idea. Best advice always for new breeders is to start with hardy and easy to handle parrots. Lovebirds or Indian ring neck is good starting point. Once you successfully breed them and hand feed their young. You can start your artificial brooder lessons and experiencing different hand feeding tools and formulas. Amazon and many large parrots species are tough to breed based on the known fact of their complex nature and pair compatibility issues. Male Amazon parrots are prone to hormonal aggressiveness upon sexual maturity which leads to male kills female or severely hurt the female. If you lack the actual experience it is good to have someone take care of your collection for you. Experience for such large parrots takes time and you wont know all information soon enough to handle Amazon parrot. Another point is why experiencing with Appendex 1 Cites parrots which also very expensive birds if you can get the needed knowledge with much cheaper alternative . I know my suggested approach here might sound boring but its the right way to your goal. If you start fast and unprepared you will waste time and money and makes you parrot hater. Please reconsider the steps process of building the knowledge instead of start now and ask questions later approach.

Good to hear from you!

As you know, I am not a supporter of individuals getting into Breeding by starting with the mid to larger Parrots and as you stated, with any of the more difficult species. I am not going to provide a defense for the OP's choices as I believe that the OP is more than capable of doing so. What I am going to say is that I have pushed back regarding the choices and was pleased with the come backs that provided more clarity as to the choices.

You are a caring individual that is willing to clearly state you're positions and defend them with well stated support, which I am also a strong believer. Please take a few minutes and go back though the Thread, I believe that you will find some comfort that the OP is not stepping blindly into the choice of Breeding expensive and difficult Parrots. Please come back with your insights and comments.

I am very impressed with your knowledge of the CITES and its controls. If you have time, I would like to ask you to read: STOP: New CITES Reg. Will Change Transport Requirements over State Lines If you have the time, I would greatly appreciate your comments regarding the most recent requirements as part of that Thread.

Again, good to hear from you, your insights are enjoyable.

 

[RavensGryf]

I used to have a female Cuban Amazon. I got her from a local bird store. She was a couple years old when I got her because she was at the store that long. She was standoffish so no one wanted her (turned out she was just shy and sensitive). I'm not sure how much she was selling for as a chick, but she was "on sale" for only $800 when I purchased her. I named her Terry.

Terry was so used to the hustle and bustle of the busy store, that she just couldn't get used to my environment. I was living alone at the time in a quiet apartment with 2 other birds. She was unhappy despite all my efforts for several years. Long story short, I still (about 12 years later) hear about her through the lady I know who grooms her and her housemates, and hear she is really happy. I look back on it, and I realize that Terry was just so sensitive and shy. Very gentle Amazon too, even during maturity. She was TINY. Only 220 grams.

They're uncommon, but attainable here, but I see you're in Canada. Best of luck recovering your lost bird .

 

[jax7271]

FYI...if you are still looking, there is a young male for sale just outside of London Ontario