Figured out how to stop Pippa's cage dominance.

[bpenniman]

When I adopted Pippa a month ago, I was told she had cage dominance. And i found out early she definately does. But I finally stopped it. I put my hand in her cage and when she tries to bite, I dont back down or pull away. It hurt a little getting bit a few times but now she doesnt do anything if I put my hand in her cage.

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

That's great and effective.

If you show fear or give in to their aggressiveness it just reinforces it. Best thing is to not show a reaction which is why you are having success!

 

[Birdman666]

Cage dominance is one of those phrases I absolutely hate, because it usually isn't even close to what is happening.

What you had was a bird that was afraid to step up, and trying to get you to back off so he/she wouldn't have to.

Now that the bird has learned that this isn't anything to be afraid of, and, oh by the way, I'm gonna make you do it anyway bird, whether you bite me or not....

THE BIRD ACCEPTS IT.

I believe that is the true dynamic in this scenario.

You can get birds who become cage territorial when they've been locked up too long, and that is more a "defend the nest because it's all I have left" situation. If I lose my home there's nothing left for me. That's where the food and water is. That's where my toys are. That's my safety and security...

That's the dynamic that happens when birds get cage bound. Convincing them that YOU AREN'T taking their home away from them is how you reduce those behaviors. And the first few times, you may need to struggle with it.

THE BEHAVIOR DOESN'T IMPROVE UNTIL THE BIRD "GET'S IT." Once the bird figures out that he still has a home to go back to,and everything will be where it always was, PLUS I get interaction and fun, and new experiences outside the cage, it's no longer a problem.

Cage dominance, like height dominance is a myth in my opinion. That isn't the dynamic at all.

Locked in a cage, they're backed into a corner already. ALL animals have a fight or flight instinct. (The flight instinct in birds is usually the stronger of the two, unless it's an amazon, or a sennie, or a macaw that has become territorial.) Since they're locked in a cage and there's nowhere to go, FIGHT instinct takes over. When you're not considered a threat, the fight or flight reaction no longer occurs. THEREFORE, the bad behavior stops.

TRUST is the correct answer here... YOUR BIRD IS LEARNING YOU ARE NOT A THREAT AND IS STARTING TO TRUST.

Does that make sense?!

 

[Birdman666]

That's great and effective.

If you show fear or give in to their aggressiveness it just reinforces it. Best thing is to not show a reaction which is why you are having success!

I respectfully disagree. Bad advice for this reason: Not showing a reaction reinforces that it's okay to bite you. You don't care. Then the bird learns to bite.

What you don't do is show fear, or let the bird get away with not doing it because he is biting. BUT you also reinforce NO BITING, or you will create a biter.

Does that make sense?

I've lost count of the number of times I've had to undo that exact scenario for people.

 

[Dinosrawr]

Is it absolutely necessary to put your hand in her cage? I can understand if you can't take the food bowls out with side latches, but otherwise I don't personally see a reason to place your hands in there while she's inside it.

I'm of the opinion that their cage is their house. If they let me in, great! If not, once they vacate I'll do what needs to be done. So long as there's no displays on top of the cage (which I don't encounter), then I'm not bothered by them protecting their abode.

If they want to come out, they know to step on the perch attached to the door. If they want to go in, they climb in or sit on the perch door. If I need to clean, rearrange, or move things, then they go on their play stand.

If you do need to take food bowls out, why not start associating your hand with good things? Every time it goes in and she doesn't bite, she gets a yummy treat. When you need to take the food bowls out, then simply distract her with a big treat that takes awhile to work away at. There's no reason to take biting like that. Birds bite to tell you what you're doing is upsetting them, not just to be little feathered monsters. She's territorial because that's HER safe place, and you're invading it. So long as she willingly goes in and out, and other than food bowls, I don't see much reason to do what you were recommended.

 

[Birdman666]

Again, I have to respectfully disagree. I tend to want to discourage overly territorial and biting behaviors, which can get significantly worse during breeding season.

I don't want to get bit sticking my hand in a cage, or stepping a bird up. In fact, I don't want to get bit period!

Teaching them to trust you is the answer. As I said above, once you defuse the "fight or flight" instinct, the problem behaviors simply stop. It's a trust issue. The bird has to trust you implicitly... once that happens... all biting pretty much stops.

 

[GreyNickels]

I really hate the "let them bite you and ignore it" theology.

You wouldn't let your child bite you and ignore it. You wouldn't let a lion bite you and ignore it.

You have an UNdomesticated animal with the intelligence of a 2 year old. When a bird goes to bite me, I just make an "eh-eh!" noise and remove my hand from reach, but not from the situation. Or if they are on me, I drop my hand quickly to knock them off balance, or blow their feathers. Something to tell them that is not allowed. After a couple of seconds, if they return to a good attitude, I praise them greatly, give scratches, or whatever that bird likes. If we are still having trouble, I run through the usual list of what could be wrong (hungry, thirsty, hot, cold, in pain....) and if we have ruled out everything but a bad attitude, they get a time out. Face it. We all have crabby days/ moments and sometimes we just need a time-out! (I hide in the bathroom with a stolen piece of halloween candy :54: )

But I whole-heartedly agree with Birdman666 - earn their trust. My motto is "if you adopted a special needs 5 year old from Russia, would would you do right now?" you wouldn't let that child hide in their room throwing things at you or biting you, would you? but you would also RESPECTFULLY work towards a relationship where he/she could trust you to come into their room and tend to their needs.

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

That's great and effective.

If you show fear or give in to their aggressiveness it just reinforces it. Best thing is to not show a reaction which is why you are having success!

I respectfully disagree. Bad advice for this reason: Not showing a reaction reinforces that it's okay to bite you. You don't care. Then the bird learns to bite.

What you don't do is show fear, or let the bird get away with not doing it because he is biting. BUT you also reinforce NO BITING, or you will create a biter.

Does that make sense?

I've lost count of the number of times I've had to undo that exact scenario for people.

Actually, I have to agree with you on this. What you said was what I was trying to say, I just worded it very wrong. I just have some people in my life who are 'afraid' of Skittles even though he hasn't attacked them in the beginning. He picks up on it. I tell them that but they don't "get it". People who don't have birds or any experience being around them tend to 'freak out' over nothing. So now, he will fly over to them and they think he's "attacking" them. That's when he actually attacks - AFTER their reaction. The only time he will attack someone is if they get to close to me, but he tends to bite me hard and 'shake' my shirt BEFORE going after anyone. There are two people he doesn't even react to - the vet and my friend who brings me who used to raise conures. Go figure.

I should also note, I do NOT encourage his biting. I do step in and stop him - even though it will hurt like hell. I don't "reinforce" his behavior, I separate him from the situation. But I also don't "punish" him for it either. He's not doing it to be nasty, he's just being protective so I have to comfort him and reassure him rather than scold him. I find that works best.

 

[rosembers]

I think it can depend on the individual birds. They can have their own individual reasons for certain behaviors and their own things that cause biting. I don't even for a minute believe that being cage territorial is solely due to being cage confined for too long. My GCC spends 80% of her day out of her cage with me around the house. Absolutely NO over confinement in the cage. And she is VERY cage territorial. That's what I have learned form experts to be specific to the breed (cage and food territorial). That is her space and she is letting me know. If she does bite, I don't react with an "ow" to give her that attention, and I stop whatever I was doing (either about to let her out or giving her new food or toys or treats). So she sees that stops because she bit. But I understand it's her space that she's protecting and I feel no need to bother her with it. She usually sways her body and makes a particular noise when letting me know she doesn't want me "messing" with her cage, but if she goes so far as to bite, then I halt from giving her that special new thing and try again in a few minutes. She does not do this if she is out of her cage and I am getting in there, only when she's inside the cage.

Many different opinions on this thread, but all are valid because everyone's bird is going to have its own individual quirks and solutions and we are all just trying to do the right thing for our individual birds

 

[MonicaMc]

I would call it cage aggression, not cage dominance.



And cage aggression often starts out when a bird is fearful and humans force the bird out of the cage. Bird learns to bite whenever there is a hand in or near the cage. Even if the bird ends up friendly and tame *AWAY* from the cage, that behavior of being aggressive around the cage has already been learned, so you end up with birds who are "fine" away from the cage, but are little "demons" when in or near their cage.



IMO, the best way to get rid of it is to stop putting the bird in a position that the bird feels the need to bite, and instead, give the bird treats while in and on their cage. You walk by, drop a treat! Get them accustomed to looking forward to your presence around the cage rather than dreading it!

 

[rosembers]

I know what you mean, MonicaMc. I have seen rescued birds that had fear of hands in their cage. My GCC isn't fearful in the least of hands and has never ever been forced out of her cage with a hand (or anything else). And we have had her since she was a handfed baby. I think she is just guarding her food. Her and I are very bonded to each other, and she can be a bit of a brat sometimes

 

[Skittys_Daddy]

Thankfully, I am not experienced in dealing with abused/neglected birds. I'm not sure how I would handle it. But I do know that if I were ever in a situation where I could take in a rescue bird, I'd do it. I have done it before, however, those rescue birds were not abused or neglected but rather no longer able to be cared for by a previous owner (usually an elderly person).

I have found, however, that treats, target training and positive reinforcement are the most effective training methods I've ever encountered. I would imagine the same is true with abused/neglected birds, however, I think a lot of reassuring, trust building and patience is needed in the beginning.

As much as I'd like to get another bird someday I don't see it happening. Not with how things are with Skittles. He would not take kindly to an 'addition' to the family but who knows what the future holds.