Dirty Laundry!

[Allee]

We have received pm’s from members from time to time questioning our reasons for banning a specific member. While we do understand your genuine concern for a fellow member we cannot discuss the details. We take our members’ privacy seriously. In most cases when you see the word banned beneath a member’s username there is no obvious reason visible to you, if offending posts or threads were involved they were probably removed.

Enjoy your stay, those words are in all our welcome messages to new members, we mean that. We invite people in, we hate to see them leave. When a member is banned it is never our intention to humiliate them no matter why they were banned. Decisions to ban a member are in most cases very difficult to make, we never make them lightly. When we do ban someone we allow them to leave with the dignity they arrived with.

Our rules are in place for the good of the community as a whole, we ask for your trust and understanding when we need to enforce them.

Here is a link to a thread that goes into more detail about the reasons and process behind a banning.

http://www.parrotforums.com/new-members-welcome/80233-myth-busting-mod-process.html

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***We posted this sticky yesterday.

This sticky was not only to answer your current questions and concerns but also for future reference, for that reason we removed some comments from the sticky thread! Hold up! We didn’t mean to start a riot. Obviously you feel censored and still have more to discuss. Therefore, we have copied the sticky itself and closed that one to comments.

[url]http://www.parrotforums.com/new-members-welcome/80571-when-member-pf-banned.html[/URL]



ParrotForums truly is The People’s Forum. We hear you, we respect you. Here is your very own thread in Off Topic where the rules are a little more relaxed. All the posts from yesterday are here. We ask you to understand that we take all conflicts on a case by case basis and this is more than likely, hopefully, a one time event. Please be respectful and know that even in Off Topic our Forum Rules, although more lenient, will be enforced.



Please keep in mind, you are welcome to voice your opinions and your personal feelings but you should know this particular decision to ban will not be overturned. We have our reasons.

Thank you in advance for your continued cooperation. Don Henley concert and popcorn in the lobby or you can join Justin, I believe he’s invited Joe Rogan to entertain us with a stand up routine.

[ame="https://youtu.be/YHimia_Fxzs"]Dirty Laundry by Don Henley [News Parody] - YouTube[/ame]
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[Flboy]

We all can post that, "Oh what was I thinking" reply! With nightly, then daily drinking, I had to do a lot of editing! With the help of an incredible blessing, those times are history for me! (Not all of the stupid replies though!)

 

[Anansi]

Well said, Huckleberry! Thank you so much for addressing this so clearly and eloquently, as it is an issue that comes up from time to time.

I can never blame our members for scratching their heads sometimes and wondering why we've made certain decisions - especially bannings - when the (often repeated) disruptions that led to said decisions are most often cleaned up in the interests of a more positive and constructive atmosphere.

Heck, I remember writing a PM myself (before I was a mod) when I thought a particular action taken was somewhat "over-the-top". The mod responded very much as he should have, refusing to go into specifics but explaining that there was a good reason. Of course, once I became a mod myself and gained access to what was happening behind the scenes, I took a stroll through the archives and found the incident that had so bothered me. Well, turns out there was a lot more going on than I'd thought! The decision was the right one, and the mod had taken a bit of heat (respectfully delivered, of course) from me rather than exposing the less-than-respectable behavior of the perpetrator in question.

Why?

Because that was his job. He'd preserved the member's dignity and privacy at the mere cost of stymying my curiosity and suffering an unjustified bit of "side-eye" himself.

I'd meant well. I just didn't have the whole story. What we see is not necessarily all there is to be seen.

 

[chris-md]

Well put allee!

But now I feel bad. I’ve not once in the years I’ve participated noticed anyone’s disappearance that i could attribute to a banning. Seems I stay farther from the drama than even I realized.

 

[Anansi]

Well put allee!

But now I feel bad. I’ve not once in the years I’ve participated noticed anyone’s disappearance that i could attribute to a banning. Seems I stay farther from the drama than even I realized.

Just one of the things we love about ya, Chris! That, and your penchant for elderly cockatoos!

 

[chris-md]

just one of the things we love about ya, chris! That, and your penchant for elderly cockatoos!

:46::46::46::46::46:

 

[SailBoat]

Now that I am wandering the Great Inland Seas of North of America thus not around as much, best defined by Mrs. Boats: He is either around too much or is gone too much!). I have had the luxury of time to see an even larger picture of Parrot Forums. The importance of each member and what they as individuals bring to this Forum is far too often overlooked until they have on their own left!

Sadly, banning is by no means even close to the more common reasons members leave. I am not going to create that long list as it will only distract for this point. And that point is; our Mod Team places great effort into course correcting a member hoping that light suggestions will provide for an understanding of the rules. Banning is very serious and our Mod Team never, every takes that seriousness for granted. At the same time, as stated above, they go to extensive efforts to protect the banned member by not providing the whys and wherefores.

I have seen on other Forums where that protect is not afforded and the banned member is publicly outed.

Although Humans have a deep want to know. We also know that an individual's privately is far more important!

A thank you to our Mod Team for assuring the protection of privately.


FYI: David, I haven't a clue what you are talking about! But for me, it is very likely too much dark rum on ice, good friend!

 

[Scott]

Thanks so much for a terrific explanation, Allee!!

I've been on both sides of the banning "wall." Years ago I had an altercation with a mod at an auto enthusiast forum. Specifically, within their political science sub forum. The mod was from an opposite POV, and I had a single warning before being forever banned. No discussion permitted, BAM!

I am proud of the process with ParrotForums; members in jeopardy have the ability to plead their case in two-way fashion. We discuss in detail and attempt to problem solve before a person is forever shown the door.

 

[clark_conure]

I don't want to put my neck out on a limb...but I watch a lot of joe rogan and tim pool and etc. and the biggest thing they say is if you give a lifetime ban, then you push someone off into the dark....then they find other site with a less i dunno "noble personage" and it can turn them away from public discourse. So is it a lifetime ban or a month ban or? If you don't watch those guys then this probably wont make sense but like here this is joe rogan and tim pool vs twitter jack dorsey and vijaya ....it's kinda relavent.... [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZCBRHOg3PQ"]Joe Rogan Experience #1258 - Jack Dorsey, Vijaya Gadde & Tim Pool - YouTube[/ame] 1:02:00 on for a few minutes and 1:46:00 for a few minutes....past 1:50:00 at least.

I asked after i got a bunch of PMs why the ban, and NO ONE will tell me why, no screen shot or explanation. i don't see an issue of privacy if she posted it in public....I have no context in which to say it was right or not.

people can learn and I dunno I don't like the idea of a permaban unless they are a total ....... And from your response from some measure of the users....She wasn't that.

Anyways in a week I'll forget about any of this but I just meh...don't like the idea.

anyways conure lovesssss

Justin

 

[Allee]

All due respect, Justin. You have been given the best possible explanation our team can offer you, thank you for making your opinions known.

 

[charmedbyekkie]

I've been a bit less on this forum largely because I'm still trying to sort out my feelings on what happened. Since I live where I live, I've seen things happen live while North America tends to be sleeping (yay timezones?) before the mods can edit or otherwise clean up a post/thread..

I guess what is causing me turmoil is this:
I grew up with parents who grew up in two different countries, in two different cultures, in two different sets of right/wrong and appropriate/not-appropriate and good/bad. My partner and I also grew up in two different countries, in two different cultures, and two different sets of right/wrong etc.

I don't think of myself as a particularly kind or forgiving person. But I do recognise and give allowances for the fact that I grew up in a culture that prioritises being polite and keeping the peace. And I have enjoyed the friendship of many who come from different cultures/countries that prioritise honesty above all. While I often disagree, I treasure their different perspective and manner of speaking/writing because it causes me to reflect on my own assumptions and my own beliefs as well as open my eyes to a different perspective and expand my knowledge.

As a minority/foreigner living in a different culture with whole different rules of how to be a good member of society (the way you move, the way you talk, the way you think, the way you conduct interpersonal relationships....), I can empathise with defaulting to the culture you were raised in. Sometimes it's exhausting to be 'local', sometimes my childhood culture compels me to speak/act in certain situations. Lighter example: I know I step on some locals' toes when I say that you can't expect a bird to just accept a harness, that you have to take time to train. More serious example: some parents slap their children and verbally abuse them in public, and no one says a word whereas I'm more than willing to discuss how filial piety laws don't make sense when you have physically/emotionally/mentally abusive parents.

At the same time, I have moderated in-person groups before.. I know a group culture has to be set because not everyone can handle communication across mistranslations and cultural differences (including cultural ignorance). I know I constantly tried to translate (even though my family always spoke English) cultural differences between my parents when they were talking on two different radio/cultural frequencies. And I know I'm constantly dialling into my partner's frequency (it's so hard for him to understand how to dial into my childhood cultural frequency since he doesn't have much exposure to it), but it's exhausting and frustrating sometimes. It'll always be a source of tension and occasional conflict unless there's a compromise from both sides.



I guess, at the end of the day, I'm mourning the loss of a perspective that, despite our occasional disagreements, I felt a kinship with and a perspective that caused me to grow in self-awareness and as a contributing member.

 

[clark_conure]

well I finally got a response and I'm ok with the decision...thank you to the person that knows who you are.

All it took was a little honesty.

I understand the whole protecting a person.....but just a bit of subtext I'd be like ooooooohhhhhhhh ok I get it.


So ok yeah I'm on your side now.

Thanks every one.....{zod drops the mike sideways, as Clark ruffles my hair }

Also I get the other secrecy thing but ....well sigh...I guess I dunno


n short to anyone who has NO IDEA what is going on, the mods got it right.

 

[Scott]

Thanks, Allee, for highlighting the consideration a member is given before a temporary or permanent ban from the forum. To our dear members, we weigh with deep respect a dire altercation with lifetime contribution before rendering a unanimous or majority decision. In all cases we seek to remain true to the credo of everyone "enjoying your stay." That truly means moderating lightly yet protecting members from the most egregious conflicts.

 

[noodles123]

So, here is my question...If a member is banned, is there any hope of them returning?

People say offensive things sometimes...They don't always know that what they have said is offensive...I am very much in favor of keeping this forum a safe-place, but sometimes, people say things without understanding their weight...Especially if those people have trouble with perspective-taking.

As a teacher, I worry about the impact a ban could have on those within our community who may be less tuned-in to social rules...Brilliant people who may be socially awkward (much like our birds in that respect). We (the collective) NEED that perspective because it is unique and informative. Furthermore, if someone who is less social has made an effort to join the community, stripping that away could result in very personal consequences (not just to the community, but to the individual).

Think about it----if Temple Grandin were a member....she would likely be banned....
Should we ban people when they offend us? When their contributions outweigh their differences, I think we must consider that as well.

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qPFAT4p8Lc"]What it feels like to be autistic - YouTube[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKhg68QJlo0"]The world needs all kinds of minds - Temple Grandin - YouTube[/ame]


I don't need a reply. This is just intended to be food for thought...

 

[texsize]

Gee, I feel like I missed something.

Oh well Guess I will live through it.

texsize

 

[LaManuka]

To err is human; to forgive, divine.

I know it’s against the rules to write to a mod to plead the case for someone who has been banned, but I have done so because I believe this member is worth it and has proven so more times than any of us can count. The member has been a great friend to so many, in the fun times, but more importantly, in times of great pain and grief. I truly believe this member has only the best interests of the feathered members of PF at front of mind and core of heart, and in my very humble opinion it’s the birds who are the big losers if this ban remains permanent.

Yes the member has transgressed forum rules a few times, but my goodness how many more times has she displayed what a compassionate heart she has?! How many people have been comforted by her extra-ordinary words of kindness following the loss of a beloved bird? And how many more have benefited from her experience, insight, knowledge and amazing wisdom when faced with a situation with their bird that they may otherwise struggle with - to the detriment of the bird?! I do not believe the best interests of the majority are being served with this permanent ban. I understand that the forum needs to be a “safe” place for all, however the very reason people read our posts and/or join up is for the betterment of the birds in their care. That is the fundamental reason for this forum’s existence and what makes it so great, and I do not believe that permanently banning this member helps in that endeavour.

I’m quite sure every one of us can recall a time when we have received forgiveness when we thought all hope of redemption was completely lost. It is my enduring hope that hearts may eventually soften and that this member may be allowed to return. The forum I believe is a poorer place without her.

 

[Flboy]

I knew this ban was inevitable, I had been following the anger building! I went back and forth on sending a pm, but I had one attack, very minor, from her in the past, and I know she can be trigger happy!
Remember, for someone to be forgiven, it is a two way proposition!

This is not the case here, but I say no, you can not always overlook someone’s faults because of their contributions!
When someone is banned, I am sure a lot of pain and tears went into the decision!

 

[Anansi]

So, here is my question...If a member is banned, is there any hope of them returning?

In the case of a temporary ban? Of course. In the case of a permanent ban, it has only happened once (to my knowledge).

People say offensive things sometimes...They don't always know that what they have said is offensive...I am very much in favor of keeping this forum a safe-place, but sometimes, people say things without understanding their weight...Especially if those people have trouble with perspective-taking.

Well said, and I agree 100%

Should we ban people when they offend us? When their contributions outweigh their differences, I think we must consider that as well.

Again, I agree 100%.

Now let me ask you a question. Why do you assume that we have not considered any of this? Why do you assume that one insensitive thing was said or done that has led to a banning? Has it never occurred to you that multiple warnings and even infractions may already have been extended? That a banning may have had less to do with an isolated incident of social awkwardness than a continual and repeated refusal to abide by the rules of the site?

Look, I empathize with what you're doing here. And I really respect it. But you're making an argument based on incomplete information.

Now some would have us go into detail, chapter and verse, in order to basically justify our decisions. To that, I'll say what any mod worth their salt would: "No." We do not adjudicate by committee. I don't say this to be harsh, because I understand where you're coming from. But mods cannot effectively maintain a forum and seek approval from all involved. Our policy is what it is, and everyone who joined at least tacitly agreed to abide by the rules and structures currently in place.

But that said, I will say that we do take the factors into account that you have addressed above. In fact, we take great pains to do so. But while some might be focused solely on the unfortunate event of one member's banning, they of a necessity remain blind to all that has preceded it. They remain blind to any infractions, to any 2nd, 3rd, or even 7th chances, to any number of edits, or to the possibility of any pm'd complaints from other members. Sometimes it gets to a point where you have to ask yourself whether you're okay with the rules for some being mere suggestions for others.

To err is human; to forgive, divine.

I know it’s against the rules to write to a mod to plead the case for someone who has been banned, but I have done so because I believe this member is worth it and has proven so more times than any of us can count. The member has been a great friend to so many, in the fun times, but more importantly, in times of great pain and grief. I truly believe this member has only the best interests of the feathered members of PF at front of mind and core of heart, and in my very humble opinion it’s the birds who are the big losers if this ban remains permanent...

Just to be absolutely clear here, it is not against the rules to plead the case of someone who has been banned via pm. You just shouldn't expect us to give an explanation as to why that member was banned.

Now, please understand that this thread was intended to be general in nature. We are making a soft exception here, but public discussion of someone's banning, even to this limited capacity, will not be a regular occurrence. That said, the banning in question was not an indictment of this person's character. Personally, I've always been rather fond of said member. So this decision was not undertaken lightly. Again, I won't go into any further detail save to say that you have not been privy to the rather extensive history of this case. I have a lot of respect for you as a positive contributing member of our community, and I appreciate the caring for your friend that prompts you to make this post, but try to take into account that while this discussion is new for the rest of you, it's months old for us.

...This is not the case here, but I say no, you can not always overlook someone’s faults because of their contributions!

Exactly. Or rather, you can to a point, but there has to be a limit.

When someone is banned, I am sure a lot of pain and tears went into the decision!

Very true, my friend. Thank you, David, for giving us the benefit of the doubt.

...I guess, at the end of the day, I'm mourning the loss of a perspective that, despite our occasional disagreements, I felt a kinship with and a perspective that caused me to grow in self-awareness and as a contributing member.

Charmed, I appreciate your well thought out and balanced post. Most of what you said, I trust/hope, has already been addressed by my other responses. But your last sentence bares repeating. Believe it or not, we mourn the loss of such perspectives as well.

 

[clark_conure]

Not for nothing I think anyone that owns a parrot has had some dirty laundry, especially a tee shirt .... from time to time.

The title of the thread amused me.......

 

[noodles123]

So, here is my question...If a member is banned, is there any hope of them returning?

In the case of a temporary ban? Of course. In the case of a permanent ban, it has only happened once (to my knowledge).

People say offensive things sometimes...They don't always know that what they have said is offensive...I am very much in favor of keeping this forum a safe-place, but sometimes, people say things without understanding their weight...Especially if those people have trouble with perspective-taking.

Well said, and I agree 100%



Again, I agree 100%.

Now let me ask you a question. Why do you assume that we have not considered any of this? Why do you assume that one insensitive thing was said or done that has led to a banning? Has it never occurred to you that multiple warnings and even infractions may already have been extended? That a banning may have had less to do with an isolated incident of social awkwardness than a continual and repeated refusal to abide by the rules of the site?

Look, I empathize with what you're doing here. And I really respect it. But you're making an argument based on incomplete information.

Now some would have us go into detail, chapter and verse, in order to basically justify our decisions. To that, I'll say what any mod worth their salt would: "No." We do not adjudicate by committee. I don't say this to be harsh, because I understand where you're coming from. But mods cannot effectively maintain a forum and seek approval from all involved. Our policy is what it is, and everyone who joined at least tacitly agreed to abide by the rules and structures currently in place.

But that said, I will say that we do take the factors into account that you have addressed above. In fact, we take great pains to do so. But while some might be focused solely on the unfortunate event of one member's banning, they of a necessity remain blind to all that has preceded it. They remain blind to any infractions, to any 2nd, 3rd, or even 7th chances, to any number of edits, or to the possibility of any pm'd complaints from other members. Sometimes it gets to a point where you have to ask yourself whether you're okay with the rules for some being mere suggestions for others.



Just to be absolutely clear here, it is not against the rules to plead the case of someone who has been banned via pm. You just shouldn't expect us to give an explanation as to why that member was banned.

Now, please understand that this thread was intended to be general in nature. We are making a soft exception here, but public discussion of someone's banning, even to this limited capacity, will not be a regular occurrence. That said, the banning in question was not an indictment of this person's character. Personally, I've always been rather fond of said member. So this decision was not undertaken lightly. Again, I won't go into any further detail save to say that you have not been privy to the rather extensive history of this case. I have a lot of respect for you as a positive contributing member of our community, and I appreciate the caring for your friend that prompts you to make this post, but try to take into account that while this discussion is new for the rest of you, it's months old for us.



Exactly. Or rather, you can to a point, but there has to be a limit.

When someone is banned, I am sure a lot of pain and tears went into the decision!

Very true, my friend. Thank you, David, for giving us the benefit of the doubt.

...I guess, at the end of the day, I'm mourning the loss of a perspective that, despite our occasional disagreements, I felt a kinship with and a perspective that caused me to grow in self-awareness and as a contributing member.

Charmed, I appreciate your well thought out and balanced post. Most of what you said, I trust/hope, has already been addressed by my other responses. But your last sentence bares repeating. Believe it or not, we mourn the loss of such perspectives as well.

I haven't assumed anything. I wasn't criticizing, so much as I was commenting. I do not blame the moderators for their decisions, but without details, it is hard to fully understand. I am not asking for details either...it is very clear that those cannot be given. I just felt the need to say something. No offense was intended. If I weren't giving you (collective) the benefit of the doubt, I wouldn't be here. That having been said, it isn't unhealthy to wonder or for a community to feel a sort of loss when a long-time member departs. That is not a criticism- just a reality. Again, I am not trying to be a fire-starter. That was why I specifically said that no comment was needed on my post. I don't know the details and I doubt I ever will, but that having been said, I felt the need to say what I said just in case my perspective was unique.