Diamond in the rough

[Scottj]

I had posted to the new members page about bringing Diamond home and it was suggested I post to the macaw page.

I was going to wait a week to update but am looking for some input.

As we move into day 3, things with Diamond are progessing however he hasn't ventured far from where he first walked out of the travel cage and up the side of his new home to a ledge. I have managed to coax him about 3-4 feet from that spot with treats and he then goes right back. All well and good but it's getting cold. Granted he's been outside for years in this climate but I don't believe it's been good for him. I built a 2'×2'×3' box out of 2x12's with the idea it would proved good insulation from the cold. Problem is he hasn't gotten close to it.
He hasn't gotten over to his food and water either so I've been feeding him larger nuts by hand and holding his food and water bowls for him while he easts and drinks. He has walking access all the way around his cage (is 6'×12'×7' big enough to call an aviary???). Our interactions have been very positive. He's allowed me to touch him twice for brief moments and last night saw the first tail wag ever. It was something I had believed he didn't do or I just didn't know what it looked like but it's a full on wag of the tail?

What I'm wondering is should I force him over and into the box despite the possible set back that might cause?

Any and all help is much appreciated.

Here is a pic of Diamond. He loves to show me his "pretty wings". (Couldn't seem to rotate it)

 

[macawluv]

Hi what type of macaw do you have and what is his history?

 

[SilleIN]

Welcome to the forum, I am sure you will find lots of people, who will do their best to help you

I would never force a new bird. This may make the bird distrust you and it can have long lasting effects on your relationship.

If the bird has to be moved for it's own good and coaxing is not possible, I would ask another person to put a towel in Diamond and let the other person move the bird. The downside to that, is that the bird may hate the house, by the way it has been introduced to it.

More information about the bird, the cage (photos helps a lot) and the climate would be good. And as Macawluv said, information about the species and its history would also be helpful to guide you better

 

[Scottj]

Diamond is a blue&gold macaw. I decided not to force him but have been trying to entice. I wish I would have released him in the box. The spot he first climbed up to has been his favorite spot and is also where he sleeps. We are in northern California. It can get down to the high 2o*s on occasion. Right now it's 48*. It typical for it to be in the 50s range in the day and is often in the low/mid to high 30s at night. He came from close by so very little climate change. He been here for about 10 days and has recently begun to explore his cage.

Diamond has seen me for maybe 2 years but I have establishing a relationship with him for about 8months. We have made good progess since he's been here. It's been great!

Until...

...last night. We all were on the deck tallking with Diamond, I shared some of my dinner with him etc. Then, as I was standing outside of the cage he lunged a bit at my wife as he does here and there. Seems harmless enough. She sings and talks to him a lot and he seems to enjoy it. So as I walked by he sort of lunged at me and I said "no" firmly, but not harsh. Oh boy! I've never seen him so pissed off. He started talking in complete sentences, (which he rarely does when he thinks you can hear him) half gibberish but filled with things like " shut the @%#* up, I don't want to talk about it mother #$*er". "Get out @#%*er" on and on and on. It went on for about 30 minutes and continuous. A lot of it is so fast I can't make it out and some of it is very clear. I clearly really REALLY upset him. I've said no to him before but more of a softer "no, no Diamond" and he's not reacted improperly.

He then spent quite a while of more just talking and mumbling (as apposed to 30 minutes of frantic yelling) but its all bad. Quite an insight. Every morning when he wakes I listen to him with a monitor (he doesn't know) and after several days he'd stopped saying "mother @#$*er" and had added things we say like " hey buddy" "I love you" "what's up" "hi baby". I wonder what tomorrow will bring. Pretty bummed though. He really mad at me. In all the months I've been interacting with him he's never been like this.

Here's some pics...pre pissed off.

 

[SailBoat]

I have no experience with this type of interact with a Parrot. To me, it seems like trying to interact from afar. More like interaction with a caged farm animal or Zoo animal. None of the up close interaction that would be common with a Parrot that was housed indoors as part of the family!

Parrots are highly social creatures and long for interaction with their group /family. They are not creatures that commonly exist alone /separated from others. Nor do they do very well socially in that kind of existence.

Yes, I understand and know that Parrots can be housed outside and can adjust to cooler temperatures. But that is not the World that they originally came from, nor is it healthy for them without changes, i.e. heat sources.

I am unsure of what type of relationship you want to have with this MAC. I am certain that what you have seen so far and what is coming will be based on this MAC's efforts to obtain 'some level of interaction' even if it is poor interaction. Very likely the source of the swearing that you are now seeing as a result of like care from the prior owners.

Please advice what kind of relationship you want to have!

FYI: I strongly recommend that you read the first three Threads in the MAC Forum and a base line of understanding and working with your MAC. Also read anything in the full list of MAC Threads and Posts from Birdman666.

 

[LeaKP]

I suspect, not being a Mac owner ever but having had greys for many years, he's letting his feeling out. May be some tough sailing for a while (be watchful if thebeak) but if you persevere there will be a wonderful friend come out of all this. I had a grey that I fostered was much the same. He pouted, shouted, murmured and complained. I kept a strict regime of treats, love, schedules, predictability. He did blossom after almost a year. Look at the Mac forum if you haven't...lots of great stuff there. All the best!

 

[Scottj]

I have built and had a great relationship with Diamond over the last 8months in his previous home. Talked about it a bit in my new members post "bringing home a blue and gold macaw".

Diamond has had a mostly rough couple of decades. Some good. Had a mate for a short time that passed about 2 years ago. He's been outside for many, many years. He's reacted and interacted better with me than anyone in a very long time. We wanted him to have a better home and would like to get him inside someday but he's pretty cantankerous and minimally needs to be willing to step up, be touched and have some manners. He's made a lot of progress in the short time he's been here but we've got a long way to go. He's already changed his screeching for attention to verbally calling for me. It only took 2 days to break him of this. I listen to him with a monitor when home.

His next step will likely be a bridge to a window at the kitchen where he could come in. He's just not going to be allowed to come in and take over at this point.he's attacked people in the past.

Well, I was going to go on but he's calling for me now.

 

[Scottj]

Thanks LeakP, your post showed up after I posted. Also thank you Sailboat. I have great hopes For Diamond.

 

[SailBoat]

I have built and had a great relationship with Diamond over the last 8months in his previous home. Talked about it a bit in my new members post "bringing home a blue and gold macaw".

Diamond has had a mostly rough couple of decades. Some good. Had a mate for a short time that passed about 2 years ago. He's been outside for many, many years. He's reacted and interacted better with me than anyone in a very long time. We wanted him to have a better home and would like to get him inside someday but he's pretty cantankerous and minimally needs to be willing to step up, be touched and have some manners. He's made a lot of progress in the short time he's been here but we've got a long way to go. He's already changed his screeching for attention to verbally calling for me. It only took 2 days to break him of this. I listen to him with a monitor when home.

His next step will likely be a bridge to a window at the kitchen where he could come in. He's just not going to be allowed to come in and take over at this point.he's attacked people in the past.

Well, I was going to go on but he's calling for me now.

I strongly recommend Birdman666 writings in the MAC sections (both his Threads and Posts) as a foundation for you to quickly develop a deep relationship with your MAC.

A strong point to start from is: It is 'NEVER THE FAULT' of the MAC, It is 'ALWAYS THE FAULT' of the HUMAN! Understanding EVERYTHING from this position will quickly allow you to see what you are doing or need to do to create a positive relationship with your MAC! Your MAC is reacting to the poor relationships and treatment it has been subjected too! There is no reason for your MAC to expect anything different from you! So you and your family are going to have to make all the effort.

If you think about your statement that: He has too change! It is not him reacting too you! Its the only reaction from the poor past treatment that he has received!!! So, you have to prove to him that you are TRUST WORTHLY for him to even begin to want to trust you! Etc... Etc... Etc...

Understand that you start from a bad place!!! But, with a deep and committed effort on your side, including your family, know that there is a WANT in him to LOVE you and your family!!! It is up to you! Buck it up and Win him over, I promise you it will be worth it!

Again, read Birdman666!!!

 

[Scott]

I second the advice to read Birdman666's postings! Below are a few links that may help you better understand and interact with Diamond:

http://www.parrotforums.com/macaws/56384-big-beak-o-phobes-guide-understanding-macaw-beaks.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/49144-tips-bonding-building-trust.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/3100-bond-forming.html

Hope these threads help!

 

[SilleIN]

I have a second (fifth) hand B&G. He was quite bad, when I got him. He lunged at anything even remotely close to his cage. And he had several areas plucked as he was very stressed in his former environment.

I treated him as someone with PTSD. You never know what will tick them off, but be sure to know, that if you are consistent in being kind and loving to him, he given time will improve. That being said, he will probably have relapses for a great number of years, but they will decrease little by little over time. I by now know what will make Sugar have a bad day(s). When going to the vet, I need to be aware of his temper for 1-3 days. And when those times come, you will learn to work around the moods

 

[wrench13]

Hang in there Scott, we are all rooting for you and Diamond.

 

[GaleriaGila]

Welcome.

There is hope and support and advice for all here.

Even for me and my darling, who is more of a lump-of-coal in the rough!

Glad you found us!

 

[Scottj]

Thanks guys for all your comments and support. I've read all suggested (most for a second time) and also read and watched some clicker training materials. Good stuff. Going to start today. I think it will help remove some of the confusion that may be generated from my end. He does come to me (usually) when I say "Diamond, come here" but "step up" has been rough, filled with uncertainty on both sides. I am hoping I can redirect him and make him more comfortable with the clicker. Bird tricks on on utube has some great videos. Their website is www.birdtricksstore.com.

We had a good day yesterday. I did get a fairly good pinch that drew a little blood but I think it was just a "where you been" pinch because I had to be gone most of the day. Also this morning rather than have him come to me for a treat I decided to ask him to say "hello" before he got it, something I've never done. He came over to me and I think I only had to coax him 3-4 times before he said it.

I've read a lot about the hight aspect and was looking for some enlightened opinions. Often, at some point during our time together he climbs up high, he's able to get about 7' up in his cage, and gets fairly animated and a bit talky. He usually says several variations of Scott, grandpa, grandpa scott. I kinda get the feeling he trying to let me know he's in control. He's usually perfectly content at eye level with me so I don't think he's going up there to feel safe and I know he's not doing it because he's afraid. I usually stand there, looking up to him and talk to him. He'll come right down for a treat. I've decided it's a negative and when he does it I will leave. What do you think?

 

[Kentuckienne]

When I first met The Amazon, he had a play stand on top of his cage that made him a foot taller than me. He would boss around from up there and there was no question of having him step up. Removing that stand put us at eye level, and it did cause him to recalculate our relationship. I still didn't force him to do anything, and I won't say it took any steam out of him ... but going up high added something extra to his base feist level, and when he couldn't go up high the feisting didn't get as intense. I don't know how you could restrict him from going high in such a big cage ... can you make some kind of perch tree with fun stuff on it where he can be just slightly above eye level to start, and maybe he'll accept that level as good enough (because it's higher than you) but it won't put him in stratospheric ego range?

 

[Scottj]

He's got lots of places to be where he's at various hights. I am going to slowly add some fun stuff in a couple different spots that he's yet to explore. When I built the cage I decided to give him a place to get "up" too. We have 3 dogs. There were 2 dogs at his previous home but our dogs will have to pass right by him to get to the other side of the yard. They are blocked off from getting by him right now. They all have met but we are taking it very slow. Anyway, i wanted him to have a nice high spot to go to, if he felt the need, when they do finally come out.

 

[SilleIN]

It is the macaws instinct to go as high as possible, you leaving if he goes to a high place, will result in you never having any time with your macaw. When he has that type of cage he has, even if you remove perches up high, he can still just climb the cage walls.

I think it's a good idea to start training your macaw. I did the same thing, just without the clicker and just my voice as indicator for correct behavior. I can highly recommend using a wooden chop stick as target. That is very useful and you can make him focus on the target instead of stepping up on ex a handheld perch. If you then get him to start with that, that will make stepping up on you later on easier and you don't risk getting bit as much, as you have the chop stick and the handheld perch between you and the beak.

Happy training

 

[Scottj]

Hi guys, thanks for your input!

I started clicker training yesterday. This morning back at it and it's going well. It's suggested that you keep the sessions short, 2-5 minutes. While I'm reading and watching all I can maybe someone could give me some input. If I spend 5minutes training should I then go away or can I stay and hang out with him? Should every time I go out be a training session? If so that might be 10-15 sessions a day. Or is it ok to go out, hang out, give treats and not train Throughout the day? I'm not asking for a complete guide to clicker training here just some insight. As soon as I leave here I will be reading and watching more on clicker training so maybe I will find the answers.

Also, side note here, last night maybe an hour before Diamond is ready to sleep I was hanging out in his cage and Carissa, a girl that's here 4 days a week helping with our son and has only been out to see Diamond several times, walked through the house to the kitchen. Diamond walked over to where he could see her through the kitchen window. I said "that's Carissa". He literally walked about 5 feet back to me, reached out and bit me, turned around, walked away while saying "get out! Get out Scott...get out!" Perplexed I stood there for a moment...and got out, then realized that was probably a bad move. Then again not sure. He's never told me to leave before, usually just the opposite when I do start to leave.

And again, I am reading and learning all I can but direct input sure is nice.:30:

 

[SilleIN]

When training birds in general, it's very important to stop with a success. If you just started training I would only do max 3 minutes. If you get that thought "That's a good one, I'll just do one more" then stop. Don't do the next one.

And you can stay after a training session and socialize, it's actually recommended

You can easily do more sessions during a day, but you should leave him alone for at least an hour before you return for a training session.

You do not need to train every time you go in to visit. It's actually a good idea to come in and not ask anything of him, than just his company.

Good luck on your continued training and please feel free to ask any other questions and we will do our best to help you out

 

[Scottj]

Awesome advice!!! Just what I needed to hear. Thank you very much!