Despondent

[grahamland6753]

Hello,

I am reaching out for advice. I have read many threads including the popular ones made by sailboat and Birdman666, very informational, thank you.

Right now I have a YHA 10yo male named Charlie I adopted. He wasn't let out of his cage because his family was terrified of him. It took time and many bites, even one through my bottom lip, but I was prepared for this and knew he would take work. Before I knew it we were best friends. Anywhere in the house I was Charlie was by my side. He was mistreated by men so he didn't take to my husband but with my husbands dedication he would "put up" with him in short doses. By doses I mean a few seconds then he was flying to his cage or to me but hardly would even bite my husband.
My husband always wanted a B&G so we found one that recently lost his mate in January and they were not taken out of their cage with human interaction. Just allowed out ON their cage and "shewed" back in with a towel. So we took in the 20yo male B&G Frank on 6/29/18. Also knowing he wasn't interacted with much and knowing if he needed anyone it would be now after losing his Clair.

Wellness check went good. Now the introduction two these two boys.

We had Charlie in our living room as always and had Frank in there too so they could be around us and each other. Charlie would fly onto Franks cage EYES PINNED overly excited. Not a good situation.
Frank is a little cage territorial so we tried to get Charlie of this huge cage, got bit pretty aggressively but got him off. decided they cant be allowed to hang out on top of their cages because Charlie flew to Franks each time.

So a few days later due to the size of Frankies cage we moved Frank to a larger room thinking Charlie may also want his space back in our living room, his territory back I guess was my thinking.
Bad choice, Frank would make a parrot call and Charlie would just yell and yell and yell. This was not going to work. Clearly.

We moved Charlies cage in the same room as Frankie. Let them have a day or two alone and get to know each other. It was going good and still is to this day.

Every night we have been working with them coming out of the cage in a different room than their cage room and put them on "T" stands, they each have their own so they can have their own space and watch TV, hang out with myself and my husband. NOPE.
Charlie is constantly flying to Franks stand and getting smack next to him leaving Frank on the edge of the stand. Frank the gentle giant he is, is patient for a few minutes, then Frank starts to scream, we remove Charlie.
That cycle continues. We have tried allowing Charlie to share Franks stand and giving him treat at the opposite end of Franks stand. Charlie comes and gets his treats and then side steps back to Franks side. After few minutes remove Charlie back to his own T stand, after a few minutes flies back to Franks. So on and so forth.

Charlie has become almost obsessed with Frank. He pays no attention to me, its like we never even had a connection. He bites (very aggressively) when I try to have him step up, put his veggies in his cage in the morning. He has attacked my face out of no where while being held by me that turned into a faint puffy black eye.
I'll say "NO!", I try covering him for short time outs.
Nothing changes

My husband has started handling him so that I don't get hurt. My husbands arms and hands look horrible but he just keeps trying to show Charlie "your bites don't phase me, and I am not giving up"
he is working so hard with him. He recently got my husband through the eye brow.

**Side note Charlie is deathly afraid of blankets, towels, hoodies and welding gloves, because that's what was always used to handle him in his past homes **

I kept to my routine with Charlie from the beginning of Franks coming. I fed him first, uncovered him first, talk to Charlie mostly and let my husband interact mostly with Frank.
He would shower with me everyday, but now he will just scream in the shower for Frank. My husband showers with Frank, Charlie is screaming.

I have lost Charlie forever, and I miss him. I literally miss him so much. He is a different bird.

Frank act like he likes Charlie and deals with him for so long on his own perch but then Frank also looks annoyed. Why wont Frank just show him who is boss so Charlie will get a hint to back off and snap out of it. They are never out together unsupervised and my husband says birds will be birds and Frank will have to show Charlie when "enough is enough, I want my space" but that makes me nervous too.

Try getting them out at separate time alone, they endlessly scream for each other. Or Frank is screaming to go back to his own cage. I don't know and I am wearing myself out trying to think of solutions or what Frank is thinking or what is Charlie thinking.

I want my Charlie back, my heart hurts.
And I cant even help my husband work with Charlie because I'm afraid of him. I have anxiety around both of them, and especially my once sweet, sweet boy.

I've lost my best friend and I never thought it would affect me like this. Its crazy.
I'm only on week two and I don't want to give up yet I don't know how to move forward. I have ruined everything. I'm hopeless and broken.

If you read all of this, thank you for listening

 

[Tami2]

Thank you for rescuing these birds. :heart:

I’m so sorry this has happened. I’ve read so much about what can happen if you bring in another bird, that I’ll most likely only have one.
I don’t have any answers as I’m fairly new to the parrot world myself.
I just wanted you to know that your post moved me and I’ll be following your story and the advice you receive from this knowledge group.

I hope you can resolve this situation & get your Sweetie back.
Best of luck and again, I’m so sorry.

 

[grahamland6753]

That means so much. Thank you!

 

[Squeekmouse]

I'm so sad to hear your story, I wish so much that I could offer some advice or suggestions. Maybe Charlie will get used to Frank and things will slowly move to a more 'normal' tone. I hope and pray it will get better. Please let us know how it goes.



Good luck!

 

[GaleriaGila]

Thank you for your energy and devotion.
Those authors you mentioned ARE awesome.
I betcha Mr. Sailboat will be along to give you some personalized advice soon!

Welcome!

 

[grahamland6753]

That's what my husband keeps saying. "Its only been two weeks give it time" he is a glass half full type of guy.
Me well... in this situation, not so much.

Praying.

Thank you for taking time to read/reply.

 

[ChristaNL]

Oh dear...
that is so sad - but birds will be birds I guess ?

Probably the one thing you never wanted of even suspected was that the birds would go back into their birdworld and turn their backs on you: their flock and family so far.
That really, really must hurt deeply.

I have no solution - the sizedifference tells me that is it probably *not* a good idea to "let them battle it out" because Frank could easily make kebabs out of an amazon.
(And Charlie could also make some interesting holes in a fellowparrot instead of his humans).

All I've seen are youtubes where they trainend parrots not to attack each other, but these were birds who were still also interested in working with their trainer.
-> Put them om t-stands and reward when they settled down and ignored each other etc. etc. - the usual exposure/ desensitizing-training.

But with a beserking bird... you first would have to work to calm him down.
(and I have no clue how to do that apart from all the tips you've probably read up on already ...
/ apart from getting him really, really drunk -> and that is frowned upon as well as unhealthy <- sorry, my poor sense of humor, kicks in when I run out of usefull ideas)


I hope some of the amazon-experts can help you.


Hang in there- I think you guys are SO brave for keep on trying, through all the rejection and the bites.

 

[MonicaMc]

I'm sorry, but this...

"your bites don't phase me, and I am not giving up"

should not be the way to approach a biting bird. This could potentially result in a more aggressive bird because you aren't *LISTENING* to him, so he learns he needs to bite harder and harder to try and get his point across, or he may simply give up... that is, he learns that he has no say in the final outcome of the situation. Quite a depressing thing, really...



You and your husband need to learn to work *WITH* them, rather than against them. That is, each interaction is a positive one for human and bird - not a negative one.

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/72250-free-training-resources.html

 

[faeryphoebe1]

I don't know if this would help, but have you tried playing soft, slow music for them, individually? Especially, the Zon?

It probably sounds strange, but I have made my bedroom a very tranquil place. No TV, shutters closed. There are pics of castles and fairies on the walls.

I turn on my salt lamp for soft light, and play waterfall sounds with a mix of soft flute or soft Native American music, or soft instrumental from LOTR that I've found on YouTube.

It plays on a speaker, but the volume is low enough not to startle them. They were frightened of the salt lamp, initially, but got over it.

My two that get along, sometimes fall asleep right on my hand or shoulders.

Gonzo doesn't tolerate other birds, but when he comes into my bedroom, he initially calls out to the other two, then he relaxes and calms down.

When your Zon bites, do you turn your back to him immediately?

It sounds like you and your hubby are very devoted to your birds. Hopefully this is simply a transitional stage because of the new parrot.

 

[PL84]

So we took in the 20yo male B&G Frank on 6/29/18. Also knowing he wasn't interacted with much and knowing if he needed anyone it would be now after losing his Clair.

It has been under 2 weeks, just be patient... It works, almost for sure.

Just work with them, dont handle Charlie if he bites. Dont let your husband to handle him either. Just let him be and get used to the new bird. Give him treats (if you can without getting bitten), speak to him, do what you always do just dont make him bite you or your husband.

I've seen this phase A LOT of times, new birds almost all drive your "old birds" to "bad behaviour"... Once again, take it easy, let them be as they want. It should get better in few weeks

 

[EllenD]

Welcome to the commmunity...

i'm sorry you're going through this, but please don't feel that it's 'hopeless'' at this point, as you've only just begun!

2 weeks is no time at all when dealing with birds...2 months is no time at all when dealing with birds...2 years, well then you're close...

This is a marathon, not a sprint...You haven't "lost your best friend", it's simply that your best friend has a new birdy-housemate, and right now he's saying "Mom, leave me alone, I want to play with the new guy!"...

What you are going through right now, after only 2 weeks of having the new Macaw, is exactly the reason why there are sooooooo many parrots in Rescues, Shelters, and on Craigslist for rehoming...It's exactly the reason that Charlie wasn't handled by his prior owners, and it's exactly the reason why most larger parrots, and a lot of smaller ones, end-up having dozens of homes throughout their lives....Because people want what they want immediately...immediate gratification...And with parrots it just doesn't work that way, not even close...

****Think back to what you first described to us all about what it was like when you first brought home Charlie...It took quite a long time for you to earn his trust, you got many bad bites, but you kept the faith and kept working with him, it took a long time but eventually you had a new best friend, right? So why is this situation with just bringing-home Frank any different? The fact is that it's not, it just feels like it is because Charlie, who is now your constant companion after much ado, has now become far more interested in the brand new bird living in his home...Well, of course he is, it's a bird!!!

You just need to take a long, deep breath, and then think back to how long it took you to get through to Charlie the first time...And then say to yourself "I need to hit the reset button with Charlie now that we have a new bird in the house"...This too shall pass, but only with time. And at his pace, not your pace, that's just how it works with birds...

You'll be fine, Charlie will be fine, and hopefully Frank will also be fine, as he has hardly had time to settle-in to his new home yet...And Frank can certainly feel the negative energy that has been in the house since he arrived, so can Charlie. So that's the last thing you want to have happen. It's completely understandable that you're upset and scared that you've lost Charlie's affection in the past 2 weeks since you brought the new bird home, but that's not the case at all...Amazons are stubborn birds, set in their ways, want what they want, and right now Charlie sees another bird and is excited, probably hormonal, which complicates things too, and is once again testing the boundaries with you, just like he did when you first brought him home...So think back to what you did when you were going through this with him before, and go from there...hit the reset button again, and make sure that you constantly remind yourself how long this took the first time with Charlie...again, this is a marathon, certainly not a sprint my friend...

 

[grahamland6753]

I'm sorry, but this...

"your bites don't phase me, and I am not giving up"

should not be the way to approach a biting bird. This could potentially result in a more aggressive bird because you aren't *LISTENING* to him, so he learns he needs to bite harder and harder to try and get his point across, or he may simply give up... that is, he learns that he has no say in the final outcome of the situation. Quite a depressing thing, really...



You and your husband need to learn to work *WITH* them, rather than against them. That is, each interaction is a positive one for human and bird - not a negative one.

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/72250-free-training-resources.html

Its hard to even respond to this, you have NO idea the POSITIVE training we have done these last couple weeks with Charlie.

We are in no way working AGAINST him.

I just have no response to this. Thank for your reply.....I guess. VERY HELPFUL.

 

[grahamland6753]

Welcome to the commmunity...

i'm sorry you're going through this, but please don't feel that it's 'hopeless'' at this point, as you've only just begun!

2 weeks is no time at all when dealing with birds...2 months is no time at all when dealing with birds...2 years, well then you're close...

This is a marathon, not a sprint...You haven't "lost your best friend", it's simply that your best friend has a new birdy-housemate, and right now he's saying "Mom, leave me alone, I want to play with the new guy!"...

What you are going through right now, after only 2 weeks of having the new Macaw, is exactly the reason why there are sooooooo many parrots in Rescues, Shelters, and on Craigslist for rehoming...It's exactly the reason that Charlie wasn't handled by his prior owners, and it's exactly the reason why most larger parrots, and a lot of smaller ones, end-up having dozens of homes throughout their lives....Because people want what they want immediately...immediate gratification...And with parrots it just doesn't work that way, not even close...

****Think back to what you first described to us all about what it was like when you first brought home Charlie...It took quite a long time for you to earn his trust, you got many bad bites, but you kept the faith and kept working with him, it took a long time but eventually you had a new best friend, right? So why is this situation with just bringing-home Frank any different? The fact is that it's not, it just feels like it is because Charlie, who is now your constant companion after much ado, has now become far more interested in the brand new bird living in his home...Well, of course he is, it's a bird!!!

You just need to take a long, deep breath, and then think back to how long it took you to get through to Charlie the first time...And then say to yourself "I need to hit the reset button with Charlie now that we have a new bird in the house"...This too shall pass, but only with time. And at his pace, not your pace, that's just how it works with birds...

You'll be fine, Charlie will be fine, and hopefully Frank will also be fine, as he has hardly had time to settle-in to his new home yet...And Frank can certainly feel the negative energy that has been in the house since he arrived, so can Charlie. So that's the last thing you want to have happen. It's completely understandable that you're upset and scared that you've lost Charlie's affection in the past 2 weeks since you brought the new bird home, but that's not the case at all...Amazons are stubborn birds, set in their ways, want what they want, and right now Charlie sees another bird and is excited, probably hormonal, which complicates things too, and is once again testing the boundaries with you, just like he did when you first brought him home...So think back to what you did when you were going through this with him before, and go from there...hit the reset button again, and make sure that you constantly remind yourself how long this took the first time with Charlie...again, this is a marathon, certainly not a sprint my friend...

Thank you so much EllenD, your words brought me so much comfort, and you are right, "hit the reset button" and take a deep breath.
Thank you for helping me look at this in a new light.

 

[Scott]

Welcome to the forums, hope we can help you bond closer to Charlie and Frank.

Excellent advice thus far, keep in mind Charlie is still the same bird but under the influence of competing emotions. Amazons are one of the more demonstrative species capable of 3 different moods in 3 minutes! Toss another parrot into the equation and we're talking overload!

Two weeks is indeed a short period, though admittedly a trial given Charlie's biting. Sometimes a "reset" of sorts is helpful, a return to the basics of establishing the relationship. This is one of my favorite threads, you may find it helpful: http://www.parrotforums.com/general-parrot-information/49144-tips-bonding-building-trust.html

Good luck, please don't be discouraged.

 

[grahamland6753]

Oh dear...
that is so sad - but birds will be birds I guess ?

Probably the one thing you never wanted of even suspected was that the birds would go back into their birdworld and turn their backs on you: their flock and family so far.
That really, really must hurt deeply.

I have no solution - the sizedifference tells me that is it probably *not* a good idea to "let them battle it out" because Frank could easily make kebabs out of an amazon.
(And Charlie could also make some interesting holes in a fellowparrot instead of his humans).

All I've seen are youtubes where they trainend parrots not to attack each other, but these were birds who were still also interested in working with their trainer.
-> Put them om t-stands and reward when they settled down and ignored each other etc. etc. - the usual exposure/ desensitizing-training.

But with a beserking bird... you first would have to work to calm him down.
(and I have no clue how to do that apart from all the tips you've probably read up on already ...
/ apart from getting him really, really drunk -> and that is frowned upon as well as unhealthy <- sorry, my poor sense of humor, kicks in when I run out of usefull ideas)


I hope some of the amazon-experts can help you.


Hang in there- I think you guys are SO brave for keep on trying, through all the rejection and the bites.

That's exactly what we are trying to accomplish with the t stands, when everyone has calmed down and relaxed (everyone being Charlie) he gets a treat.

haha thanks for the laugh on the beer comment, it will be my last resort.

JUUUST KIDDING!

 

[EllenD]

I hope that you are able to see this from a new perspective now...But what I hope the most for you is that you really, honestly do realize that what you guys are going through in your home right now, only 2 weeks after bringing home a new parrot and introducing it to your current parrot, is completely and totally normal, and is in a lot of ways almost expected to happen in this situation. Especially with an Amazon being the "bird of the house" up until 2 weeks ago...They are set in their ways, they test boundaries and stretch them to the limits, and with any species of parrots they will always become extremely curious and want to interact with another bird in their home...

As of right now, since it's been so little time that Frank has been in your home, it's hard to even start to predict what the relationship between your two birds will "end-up" being long-term, but being experienced as you are, I'm sure you knew that going-in to this situation before you brought Frank home...Sometimes they love each other and bond closely, sometimes they simply tolerate each other and show "moments of friendship", and then sometimes they hate each other, are aggressive, and cannot be alone together at all, ever, sometimes not even when supervised. And that's when you guys have to modify your routines, schedules, and the environment to work for both the birds and yourselves...

However, right now it's far too early to even guess how this is going to end-up, and all you can do is keep doing what you've been doing. The fact that you went through what you did with Charlie when you first adopted him and you were able to not only comfort him, earn his trust, and then bond so closely with him over time is a testament to your skill, your "Bird-IQ", and most of all your commitment and dedication to your birds...I know you can't see this right now due to the stress you've been under and the emotional pain that Charlie is causing you right now, but you are 500% ahead of the game compared to most other people who adopt an adult parrot who has had multiple homes/owners and who starts-out behaving towards you like Charlie first did...Most people who go to an Avian Rescue or get onto Craigslist and find an adult parrot that needs a home, though they mean-well and think they are doing the right thing by adopting an adult parrot rather than buying a hand-raised, hand-tame baby from a breeder, have no idea what they are getting into, and when presented with the situation that you were presented with when you first brought home Charlie, they simply give-up after a month or two, sometimes after a week or two...and then the bird goes right back to the Rescue, or they themselves put the bird up onto Craigslist for re-homing...But you were not only committed to Charlie, but you were actually able to figure him out, figure out what he needed, and you were able to earn his trust and become his best-friend...That's an extremely rare gift that you have, don't you ever think otherwise. Anyone, and I do mean anyone, can buy a hand-raised, hand-fed, cuddly, snuggly little baby parrot who has just weaned and wants nothing else but to be sweet and cuddly and give you kisses, and who is healthy, eating well, and who has no "baggage" at all emotionally or psychologically from being passed from home to home to home and from owner to owner to owner...But if you're able to earn the trust of and form a bond with an adult parrot who has been given absolutely no reason at all to trust another person for the rest of his life, then you can pretty much accomplish anything in-life that you set your mind to...and I mean that very literally and seriously. And I hope that you can give yourself a little pat-on-the-back for what you've already accomplished with Charlie...He's still your Charlie, I promise you that...He's just extremely distracted by and intrigued by his new brother...

And honestly, the fact that Charlie is so interested in Frank and wants to be with him all the time in only 2-weeks of him being in "His House" is actually a good sign in a lot of ways. Parrots are in-general extremely territorial about everything in their lives...Their people, their homes, their cages, their stands, their toys, their food and water bowls, just everything. And in a lot of situations where a new parrot is brought into a home that already has a long-time, "resident" parrot who has taken-ownership of "his person" and "his area", it's very common to have tons and tons of fighting, aggression, attacks, and even very serious injuries or worse...and in the first 2-weeks of the new bird being there in their territory, this is the time that can be horribly stressful due to this entirely different reason...So with Charlie having seemingly accepted Frank into "his house", this may end-up being a huge help and life-saver, literally, to integrating Frank into the household...So there's a big positive for you to be happy about...

Charile will come around, right now Frank is still "new", very new, he's a bird in Charlie's environment, and Charlie isn't at all used to having another bird around him, so of course he's interested in him...But don't you for a second believe that Charlie has "dumped-you", lol, in the last 2 weeks...Think of him being a moody, hormonal teenager who has just gotten their driver's license and has been given a car for their 16th birthday....you don't see much of them, and when they are around you they are moody, they are wanting to constantly be out of the house and with their friends and certainly not with their parents...doesn't mean they don't still love their parents very much, but right now the shiny, new thing is the only thing they are interested in...So you just gotta have a bit of patience, well, let's face it, you've gotta have a lot of patience, lol...And again, hit that "Reset-Button" with him, go back to exactly what you did when you first brought Charlie home, when he was more interested in trying to take off your ear or a finger than spending time with you...Think about how you approached that situation, what you did, what you said, what your routines were, etc., and start from there again...The only difference this time is that Charlie is already very closely-bonded with you already, so he just needs a reality-check right now...and this time you also need to find Frank's place in the entire equation as well.

You'll be fine, you've obviously already got all the tools you need to handle this situation and get everyone moving in the right direction...The only difference is that your heart hurts right now, and of course it does, you love Charlie like you would love your own child, well, he is your child...Just keep remembering that you haven't lost him, he's still the same Charlie that he was before Frank entered the picture. Once you're able to put that hurt you have been feeling aside and focus on what needs to be done, then you got this...But again, it's also important to remember that what is going on with your birds is completely normal, nothing out of the ordinary for this situation at all, and what you have been feeling and worrying about regarding your relationship with Charlie is also completely normal...it just means you love him and you care...and that's a good thing...

 

[msdeb]

I went through this with my Charlie when we accepted Paulie. The bites hurt but not nearly as much as the thought that I was losing my Charlie bird. My heart broke because he HATED me for getting her/him. It did take a while and we had good days and bad times (we have them still for different reasons) but both birds have adjusted. Charlie has come to enjoy having Paulie around (though we did have one nasty bite that required vet care for Charlie) My Charlie was rescued from an abusive situation also and he was never really properly trained so its an ongoing training for me and Charlie. This spring has been difficult due to hormones and we had his wings clipped which has helped a LOT. As the other poster said you are going to have to do a reset. I realized my Charlie still loved me and he just had to learn to share me. Don't give up! I grieved at the thought of losing the close relationship I had with Charlie but I stuck with it and he is still my sweet baby (sometimes) Allow your Charlie to make a new friend, keep him safe, don't lose your mind from the noise, and hang on. It will get better. Prayers for you all.

 

[grahamland6753]

As the other poster said you are going to have to do a reset. I realized my Charlie still loved me and he just had to learn to share me. Don't give up! I grieved at the thought of losing the close relationship I had with Charlie but I stuck with it and he is still my sweet baby (sometimes) Allow your Charlie to make a new friend, keep him safe, don't lose your mind from the noise, and hang on. It will get better. Prayers for you all.



Thank you so much for your kind words.

 

[Just-Passn-Thru]

I'm sorry, but this...

"your bites don't phase me, and I am not giving up"

should not be the way to approach a biting bird. This could potentially result in a more aggressive bird because you aren't *LISTENING* to him, so he learns he needs to bite harder and harder to try and get his point across, or he may simply give up... that is, he learns that he has no say in the final outcome of the situation. Quite a depressing thing, really...



You and your husband need to learn to work *WITH* them, rather than against them. That is, each interaction is a positive one for human and bird - not a negative one. http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/72250-free-training-resources.html

Its hard to even respond to this, you have NO idea the POSITIVE training we have done these last couple weeks with Charlie.

We are in no way working AGAINST him.

I just have no response to this. Thank for your reply.....I guess. VERY HELPFUL.

Don't let that negative remark make you feel like you have failed your bird's... Your are here for help and advice not to be made to feel like your a bad parrot owner.

"Give them time" to settle in with each other , dynamics' have changed in your birds flock, slow down , take a step back. have you tried giving time outside their cages one at a time in the living room , Charlie will still be with his flock, same with the Macaw, try that for awhile, see if that may help , allowing out time separately, this might be a solution to avoid/help the drama. Birds are highly empathic and can sense this tension. Lower your energy,. "Allow them" time to adjust to your routine. "Allow them" to settle in and relax, inside their cages next to each other, may be all that's needed for awhile. "Give them" some time to get acquainted and adjust to your routine. Try not to place to many demands on them right now. Give it time .

 

[noodles123]

It just all depends on why this is happening....It's obviously a power-display, but at the same time, when the "bad bird" (not really bad, but you know) misbehaves, you are picking him up to move him. This attention from high-ranking "flock members" could be motivating the bad behavior. He knows he can always fly back to Frank's perch, so moving him could just be the cherry on the cake.....You need to find out what his motivation is and if your attention (or Frank's) could be making it worse in this scenario.