Cockatiel, Panacur, possible liver damage?

[DebsFlock]

So, to make a long story short, when Blanco flew up to our house, I was unable to get him to our regular vet, or any AAV listed vet, and I took him to a clinic recommended by the staff at one of the AAV listed clinics. The vet seemed fairly knowledgeable although not an avian specialist. However, he did prescribe Panacur for roundworms, which I have read has been known to cause problems, especially in cockatiels, including feather damage and liver damage.

Blanco did become quite ill and was vomiting and generally unwell while on the wormer. In consultation with the vet, we stopped treatment and he appeared to recover completely. His droppings tested negative for the worms afterward.

This was back in April, but I'm beginning to suspect he may have sustained some liver damage. He sleeps quite a bit, although he's quite lively when he is active, and my husband assures me this is fairly normal for a cockatiel. Since he's a found bird, we have no idea of his age, other than he's mature and does not appear to be particularly old. The solid portion of his droppings is darker than I'd like to see, and his urates often appear yellow, although he is quite fond of colored pellets and Zupreem's new formula seems to have the yellow effect on Scotty as well. I'll probably take all the birds to the vet soon for a checkup and grooming (new vet since we have moved). If he does have residual issues from the wormer, what can I expect in terms of treatment and the effect on his quality of life?

 

[MonicaMc]

He would require blood work to find out if he has organ failure.

Harrison's is supposedly great for birds with organ problems (although I question this myself) and Roudybush has a Careline of products for birds with health problems.


From my little experience with Milk Thistle, I can say that it's healthy and great for birds, even if they don't have liver damage, and may potentially be better than medications when a bird is sick with a bacterial or fungal infection. After all, it is the liver that detoxifies the body. (I am not recommending using milk thistle for a sick bird without consulting an avian vet first)


I don't really know about the wormer, however, since parrots in the USA are rarely ever wormed. I know it is a common thing in Australia, particularly for aviary birds outside, but I rarely hear about it anywhere else.

 

[Pedro]

So, to make a long story short, when Blanco flew up to our house, I was unable to get him to our regular vet, or any AAV listed vet, and I took him to a clinic recommended by the staff at one of the AAV listed clinics. The vet seemed fairly knowledgeable although not an avian specialist. However, he did prescribe Panacur for roundworms, which I have read has been known to cause problems, especially in cockatiels, including feather damage and liver damage.

Blanco did become quite ill and was vomiting and generally unwell while on the wormer. In consultation with the vet, we stopped treatment and he appeared to recover completely. His droppings tested negative for the worms afterward.

This was back in April, but I'm beginning to suspect he may have sustained some liver damage. He sleeps quite a bit, although he's quite lively when he is active, and my husband assures me this is fairly normal for a cockatiel. Since he's a found bird, we have no idea of his age, other than he's mature and does not appear to be particularly old. The solid portion of his droppings is darker than I'd like to see, and his urates often appear yellow, although he is quite fond of colored pellets and Zupreem's new formula seems to have the yellow effect on Scotty as well. I'll probably take all the birds to the vet soon for a checkup and grooming (new vet since we have moved). If he does have residual issues from the wormer, what can I expect in terms of treatment and the effect on his quality of life?

If the wormer was given in the correct dose there should not be a problem. The reason for the vomiting was probaby because most of the wormers for birds are very bitter & it's best to administer it directly into the crop. I am guessing you medicated straight into the beak. Recommended dose is 0.1 -0.2 mls per 50 grams of body weight.

 

[DebsFlock]

He was vomiting all day for several days, so I don't think it was a reaction to the flavor, although it was into the beak. It persisted a couple of days after we stopped giving it. He was also generally depressed and unwell. But my bigger concern is his poop and energy level five months later...

 

[Pedro]

Maybe a liver function test is the way to go. was the dose right? seems to be a serious reaction to what should be a very small dose for a tiel. I would never worm any of my birds without getting a vet to look at their dropping through the microscope first. I would only worm if there was evidence.

 

[DebsFlock]

The bird was a flyaway that landed literally on our front porch. I took him to the vet to find out his state of health. He DID look at the droppings and there WERE roundworms. Neither the vet nor I were complete idiots FPS.

Yes I plan to have the vet (another vet) check him out. My question really was IF he does indeed have liver function compromise, what would I expect in terms of prognosis and treatment?

 

[MonicaMc]

Signs of liver failure include yellow/green in the urine, yellow(er) feathers and darker feathers. Sometimes, an overgrown beak/nails can be a sign of organ failure. Birds with liver failure may be overweight or sometimes underweight. Treatment is milk thistle extract along with perhaps a diet change. The diet change/milk thistle would be required for the rest of the birds life, however long that is. Depending on the severity of damage, there is a chance that it can be reversed, if not, he/she would just require special treatment.

It's just repeating what I've already said, in different words. I used to have a tiel with liver damage, although I didn't have her on a "liver friendly" diet, but rather Harrison's to see if it would do her any good. She was also constantly sick, and no amount of medications would get rid of the infections she had... but the milk thistle made a difference!



Here are some sites on liver failure.
Fatty Liver Disease
Small Parrots in Health and Disease
Bird Liver Basics


Another option is Vetri-DMG. I would recommend milk thistle first, but Vetri-DMG is supposedly also good for our birds systems. Both can be purchased OT.



Here is the liver diet from Roudybush (AL Liver)
Roudybush Direct

Here is the milk thistle supplement that I have (bought through my a-vet, but cheaper OT) - please note, there is *NO* alcoholic content in this bottle (they also sell one with alcohol in it)
Nature's Answer - Milk Thistle Seed - 1oz

And the Vetri-DMG (liquid)
Vetri-DMGboost boosts the immune response


You wont know until you get a blood panel done, and depending on the vet, they typically start at $75-$120 for a basic panel. Even then, it's not definite, but it will give you some clues. I can't recommend much else until you get that done.

 

[Pedro]

The bird was a flyaway that landed literally on our front porch. I took him to the vet to find out his state of health. He DID look at the droppings and there WERE roundworms. Neither the vet nor I were complete idiots FPS.

Yes I plan to have the vet (another vet) check him out. My question really was IF he does indeed have liver function compromise, what would I expect in terms of prognosis and treatment?

I didn't think your vet or yourself were idiots. I don't believe i even stated that. We do have a gentle wormer made by Vetafarm that doesn't have side effects.

I really think your asking the wrong people this question i think it would be better discussed with your Vet & the appropiate treatment is given. Given that the liver has a chance of healing itself to a certian degree I guess that would depend on whether or not there is liver damage & how bad it might be.

 

[Molcan2]

Rome seemed completely healthy when we first got her. Previous owner had her for 14yrs and took good care of her. However when blood work results came back it showed severe liver damage. Since it was caught before she went into complete liver failure it was reversable. It took six months to return to normal function. If you can catch it early its reversable. Simple blood work will let you know if theres a problem. Hope everything turns out okay.

 

[DebsFlock]

I posted a thank you to MonicaMC and a clarification for Pedro but it seems to have disappeared. Hmm.

Thanks to Molcan, also.

Yes, I plan to have the vet do an assessment. I'm just trying to learn what people's experiences have been.

 

[Pedro]

I really hope you get some closure so you don't worry.

In the mean time try some of the holistic treatments.

Here is a link to a list of things you can use hope it helps.

http://www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww24eii.htm

Good luck with your little guy.

 

[DebsFlock]

Thanks. I have to confess that I am skeptical about unproven "natural" remedies including milk thistle. I tend to think it is more dangerous than helpful to experiment with something like that without contacting the vet first. But I appreciate the effort.

I will say that while Panacur is not contra-indicated in birds and is generally a "safe" wormer, when I researched the subject I found several evidently reliable (i.e. evidence-based or solidly credentialed) sources that suggested it causes problems often enough not to be the wormer of first choice and that cockatiels, for whatever reason, appear to be more vulnerable than other species. Homing pigeons also. That may just be because these are common species, however, and the statistics are therefore more complete.

 

[MonicaMc]

Don't blame you for your skepticism! I know that milk thistle is great as I've used with two birds, and I've seen great results!

My bourke parakeet got really sick. She's an older bird, about 15-17 years old now, went through surgery last year to remove cancer from her foot (unsuccessful, but worth a try), and started to go into egg laying mode. While there, she get extremely sick. Listless, droppings stuck to vent feathers, eyes dull, inactive, easy to remove from cage, etc. Unfortunately, this occurred after getting a new place to live, then having to buy a new [used] car, and on top of that having to get repair work done on that car. Normally, money isn't an issue and in other circumstances, I would have been able to take her to the vet. At that particular time, I had no money, but I did have milk thistle. I gave it to her. I honestly didn't know if it would help, let alone if it could. (pretty stupid, right?) I gave her about .03 cc once per day (should have been twice) over a couple of weeks and she's been healthy ever since! I now have to chase her around the cage if I need to take her out for any reason, her eyes are bright, droppings normal and no longer stuck to her vent feathers.

As per the bourkes blood work last year, her organs are within normal ranges! I told my a-vet about this experience and she was surprised! She feels that the milk thistle was able to help the bourke get her system back in order to fight off the infection.


I would be skeptical as well about all these "natural" remedies (heck, I still am about Vetri-DMG - recommended by my a-vet, as well as an Aloe-Detox - recommended by Carolyn Swicegood as per articles), but I can say that from my experience, milk thistle does work! And milk thistle is recommended even by non-holistic vets and doctors because it's really that good!



Having said all that, I don't know if it *will* help your cockatiel. It may, but I can't make any guarantees of it. I would be interested to hear of any test results you get done on him and what treatment is recommended.

 

[Molcan2]

I go to my vet later today, sigh, i'll ask him what he thinks of it. I hold his opinion highly, hes board certified and specilizes in birds and reptiles, in fact that is all he'll see.

 

[Molcan2]

I'll ask about the milk thistle to, as i am also scept on that as well.

 

[DebsFlock]

Blanco has an appointment next week. So of course his poop has changed back to a normal color now, LOL. I'd still like him seen by a good vet.

 

[DebsFlock]

So $300 later, I have a very healthy cockatiel that was seriously annoyed at me for about 24 hours... bloodwork came back textbook normal.

 

[MonicaMc]

Then it was $300 spent that was well worth it to know your baby is doing fine!!! Glad to hear it!