Clipping and muscle atrophy

[GreenCheek]

This thread isn't to start a debate on wing clipping (please!), but I AM curious to know the impacts that it has on their bodies. I got Cody from his breeder clipped, I had no say in the matter. She clips all of her birds before they go to new homes (after learning to fly of course!) And it probably did help with our bonding, but I knew I wanted to let his wings grow back out from the day I got him. Well, back when he was clipped, I used to play with his wings and massage his wings to get him used to the handling, and at the time I didn't know the difference, but now I realize his wing muscles were really small! Almost non-existent. Now that he's fully flighted, and has been for quite a few months, his muscles are like 3 times the size! He feels like a little muscle man! I just can't believe how much the clipping made him atrophy.

I guess my question is, how much does clipping affect their muscles, and for those that do clip, is there any way to prevent their muscles from degrading so much?

Just thought this would be an interesting topic. Please, no fighting!

 

[HRH Di]

It's only logical that clipping would cause some atrophy of the flight muscles.

The only one of our birds who was ever clipped is Max. He hated it and wanted to fly so badly. He used to grab the bars of his cage and practice to keep his muscles at least in a little shape. Max has been flying for about 6 weeks now and it's becoming much easier for him. He still flaps his little heart out, but his height, distance and stamina are significantly better than when he first flew again. He's still having a hard time landing, but he's getting better. He doesn't like to be touched and petted so I don't know how much bigger his muscles are, but I'm sure he'd be more impressive to the girl Alexandrines on the beach.

 

[greycloud]

It is true that flighted birds are going to have bigger and stronger wing muscles as well as in the chest. I have a freind with 3 fully flighted greys. I am telly you, these birds look like muscle builders! LOL! They look like purdue chickens!
I have grey that is fully flighted but unable to fly. Somewhere in his past before adopting him he had severe wing injury to both wings where they join the body. He cannot flap. I do exercise him by promoting lots of climbing. For thse who have clipped birds you can exercise by having the bird flap excitiedly by moving the arm up and down over a bed for safety.

 

[Spiritbird]

Rosie is clipped and I exercise her with wing flapping and she does it herself too. I am sure this is not as effective as the real thing. Don't know if I can take too many more debates. Nice not to have one here for a change.

 

[Auggie's Dad]

I have little to base this on other than speculation - but I imagine a clipped bird would not have as BIG of muscles, but they could get more of a work-out.

Take Rosie's wing workouts as an example: she has to flutter hard and fast to do much of anything. A fully flighted bird does not need to flap nearly as fast, but each 'flap' takes much more effort due to the added drag force.

So clipped birds may be more like runners/cyclists, while flighted birds are more like body-builders.

But again, that's just speculation.

 

[Mel]

I have little to base this on other than speculation - but I imagine a clipped bird would not have as BIG of muscles, but they could get more of a work-out.

Take Rosie's wing workouts as an example: she has to flutter hard and fast to do much of anything. A fully flighted bird does not need to flap nearly as fast, but each 'flap' takes much more effort due to the added drag force.

So clipped birds may be more like runners/cyclists, while flighted birds are more like body-builders.

But again, that's just speculation.

I think your speculation makes a lot of sence.

 

[GreenCheek]

Thanks everyone for your input. I agree that it's common sense that the wing muscles would atrophy, I guess I was just surprised how much! Even after Cody grew all of his flights back, he still couldn't fly as well as he can now. It took both his flight feathers AND to regain his muscle for him to be flying like normal again.

 

[Aussie Ben]

my 2 cents (btw also glad this didn't turn into a clipping debate)

I agree that flighted birds are stronger in the wings and don't have to flap as hard. My flighted ekkie hardly flaps at all and travels a million miles an hour (seriously, he is soooo fast). He takes a couple of flaps to thrust himself forward off the perch and then the rest are just tiny little flaps to maintain speed and altitude until he reaches his destination (he practically glides for a lot of it). Then out pop the speed brakes and he stops almost suddenly, incredible to watch.

My tiel also came clipped from the breeder and I continued to clip for the first 1-2 molts, then I let her grow her wings out, the amount of muscle they seem to gain is incredible.

 

[wildheart]

It is amazing how much muscle they gain by flying especially if they glide most of the time. Maybe there is much more to gliding than what we think.

I was against clipping Sterretjie's wings because she only had one proper leg, I thought it would be cruel to make her walk. But, because she attacked everybody in the face we had to clip her.

When she just arrived by us she did not use her leg at all and always used to stand on only one foot and did almost no walking. Forcing her to walk gave her leg muscles a lot of work and I could see that it was really painful in the beginning - like stiff muscles. Today this girl walks everywhere with two legs, she stands on both and you saw the photo how she balanced herself with both legs to reach the bottom of a tupperware dish.

I can say that her leg does not pain like it used to and does not bother her at all anymore. She does a lot of wing flapping every time that I walk past her, so I think that must count for wing exercise - I hope.

If she flies again she will not use her leg that much and like all old injuries, I am sure it will become painful again.

So I think it is a bit difficult to decided what would be best for Sterretjie?

Who owns a bird that has always been clipped or who could never fly? Does atrophy -(I assume it means breakdown of muscle) become serious and painful like Sterretjies leg did?

 

[greycloud]

Wildheart, Like I said, my poor Dexter(CAG) is 14 yrs old now. 6 years ago we rehomed him from his owner who passed from cancer. At first we didn't notice that he never flapped his wings. Then I thought "Boy, he never opens his wings, even during baths and he never does the one leg, one wing stretch!" I could leave him on is cage and he would climb all over it and never attempt to move off of it. Well I took him in for a vet check. The vet placed him on his back and went to stretch his wings out and poor Dexter screamed! I truely don't blame the vet but it ended up tearing scarred and atrophied muscle under both wings. It took 2 months of antibiotics and a special antibiotic/analgesic powder to finally heal his wings. You would not believe how hard I cried when one day during treatment he was standing on my hand and actually lifted his wings away from his body in tiny flaps. I cheered him on excitiedly! He said "Goodboy!" I told him he surely was!
Now even though this is a huge accomplishment, Dexter will never be able to extend his wings out lateral to his body and will never fly. It is very sad. Like I said, I exercise him with climbing fun but he continues to have no muscle development to chest muscles. His keel is even a little prominent. All his bloodwork is normal, he is very happy and has started to climb down off his cage and explore!
Flying definitely builds those muscles. Clipped birds can still be very strong with flapping exercises. Your bird probably would benefit from climbing exercises. If you don't have a climbing cargo net, I highly recommend you invest in one. They are excellent in promoting coordination, muscles and confidence.

 

[wildheart]

I knew I read about somebodies bird that could not fly, poor Dexter.

Do you know the reason why he cant use his wings, is it because he was clipped for 6 years and his muscles started breaking down or is it something else? Sorry if you maybe did say and I did not catch it.

 

[greycloud]

No, Dexter was never, ever clipped. I spoke to the daughter of the owner who passed. She even does not remember him injuring himself. My avain vet xrayed his wings and they are correctly formed. However there is lots of scar tissue under his wings where the actual wing attaches to the body. If his wings open to far the scar tissues tears, ulcerates and bleeds. He has never plucked and still does not. The vet is very confused as to what could have caused it, but he does know that it is many years old. Thanks for asking.

 

[Spiritbird]

GC do you think this is painful for Dex?

 

[greycloud]

I think before treatment it was definitely painful. I feel absolutely terrible that he had to suffer for who knows how long. Around the 4th week of treatment he started playing mor with his toys, foraging and actually climbed off his cage to explore. By the 6 th week he flapped for the first time. He is such a gentle soul, funny but quiet. He talks and lots of sound effects, loves kisses and head scritches. So I definitely feel that he is painfree now and happy. Thanks for asking.

 

[wildheart]

I am glad that Dexter is better and seems pain free, give him lots of kisses from me.

 

[Auggie's Dad]

I think there is much more to gliding that one might think. They have to hold their wings straight out. The amount of lift created must be, by definition, equal to their body weight, otherwise we'd call it falling, not gliding!

A human on a hang glider is no comparison to a bird gliding. A human with a hang glider broken in half such that he had to hold each half strait out throughout the glide would be a better comparison. It'd be a lot like the 'iron cross' on rings (Rings (gymnastics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

 

[HRH Di]

GC - I'm so glad Dexter is healthy and happy now. I know what you mean by unknowingly hurting your parrot/dog/child. They love us unconditionally and trust us to care for them...then something like that happens because we just don't know. And then they forgive us with no questions or explanation required.

However, don't beat yourself up. Even though the treatments were painful, both of you knew that it would be worth it in the end. You posted that he's more adventurous now and that's gotta mean a better place mentally, emotionally and psychologically.

 

[Aussie Ben]

I think there is much more to gliding that one might think. They have to hold their wings straight out. The amount of lift created must be, by definition, equal to their body weight, otherwise we'd call it falling, not gliding!

A human on a hang glider is no comparison to a bird gliding. A human with a hang glider broken in half such that he had to hold each half strait out throughout the glide would be a better comparison. It'd be a lot like the 'iron cross' on rings (Rings (gymnastics) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia).

Yea absolutely. I'm not going to bother doing this lol - BUT if you look at the surface area of the wing and calculate the 'wing loading' and how much force is actually being applied. AND if you consider the length of the wing which is just a massive 'moment' arm, once you add all that up the force being applied where the wing joins the body would be absolutely horrendous The muscle power they have to sustain flight is incedible

Unfortunately inside a house the air is still. Using the gliding technique the bird will never be able to produce equilibrium between lift and weight (otherwise known as level flight). Human gliders need to source lift from thermals to stay aloft continuously. So to compensate in a 'still air' house, more flapping is required. Luckily my house has level changes from room to room so Eddie is able to try some gliding. Maybe we should install some air vents to create thermals for our feathered friends, then they could glide around all day.

 

[HRH Di]

Ben....waaaaaaay too much math and physics for this time of day and too little sleep last night.

 

[Aussie Ben]

Ben....waaaaaaay too much math and physics for this time of day and too little sleep last night.

lol sorry, I'm just obsessed with flight and can't resist a good rant when the opportunity arises