Can a cage be too big?

[slicksimon4]

Hello all.

About a week ago I purchased a Panama Amazon, she was hatched in early June so she is about five months old. She is great. She is cuddly, very gentle when she bites, and is very open to trying new things be it food or toys. She is a little clumsy and is unsure how to negotiate corners especially around the cage door and a swing that moves a little too much she thinks. I think I have a great bird here. She very much picked me in the store.

This really may be two separate issues but...

At the bird store where I got her the sales guy said they, there were two to pick from, were hard to get out of the cage but as soon as they broke the plane they were fine. He proceeded to grab one and hand it to me as they both protested. He said they couldn't bite hard enough yet and they didn't. I always thought that was a big no-no because at some point they will bite hard enough to stop you, not to mention the relationship damage you are doing by snatching them from the cage. I have not grabbed her like that since we have been home though it takes lots of cajoling and deft finger placement to get her out. She is fine/ sociable once she is out. No growls and no beaking.

I got them to throw in a cage with the purchase, it is 40x30x60 tall. This cage, though it is a great size for a smaller amazon, may be overwhelming to such a young uncoordinated bird and complicates the extraction procedure. I also have a smaller 22x24x48 cage that would probably be acceptable as a "grow" cage. She is in the larger cage, it is well stocked with lots of toys and several hiding places. It may be too nice and she will never want to leave it.

My dilemma is this, It is really hard/ frustrating trying to get her out of her cage. It takes multiple step up requests and almost have to trap/ trick her into getting on my hand to get her out. Once she is out she is ok. I think it turned into a game, running from the hands, at the pet store and I don't want to continue or encourage the game.

Would it ultimately be better to put her in the smaller cage with fewer toys to encourage her to want to come out of the cage and re-enforce the step up part then move her back to the larger cage. At her age, I didn't think she was old enough to be cage territorial yet. As an aside, she doesn't like to be moved from anywhere really be it cage, stand, table top stand. etc. She will ladder fine once she is on your hand, so she knows what the step up command is. I don't want to do more harm than good here but I have to get her to step up reliably.

Sorry for the rambling but if I am asking for your opinions you need as much background information as I can give you.
Thanks

 

[FlyBirdiesFly]

Target train her and teach her to step up with treats and positive reinforcement. You should never force your bird to do something she doesn’t want to, as she will quickly lose trust in you and avoid coming out of the cage. Try figuring out what her favorite treat is, then use it to bribe her into stepping up: place the treat behind your hand so she has to step onto your hand to reach it. Don’t push your hand into her chest if she doesn’t step up immediately - work at her pace and let her decide. If she learns that coming out of the cage results in treats and other positive things, she’ll be more eager to step up for you. Remember to be patient and go slow, and you should never be rushing her into doing something she isn’t comfortable with yet. You’ve only had her for a week! She’s still getting used to her surroundings.

Recently, I have been working on getting my conure, Kermit to let me touch and handle him. Using positive reinforcement training, I’ve now gotten to the point where he’ll let me put my hand around his back, grab him, pick him up, and touch his wings. Just a week ago, he was afraid of hands and didn’t even let me give him scritches. This was the result of me pushing his boundaries and forcing him to be touched so he would “get used to it”. The key to training your parrot is gaining their trust, not forcing them against their will.

 

[chris-md]

I’ll second above. Large cage isnt your issue. I have an Ekkie with roughly the same size cage.

Targeting is absolutely one way to do it. Wholeheartedly endorse this.

Getting him over the threshold seems your issue. Luring could do this, which is simply holding a treat inches from his face and luring him out of the cage, giving the treat only when he comes out of cage of his own accord. Luring is a powerful tool when used in moderation (must wean off of it ASAP). It gets you over the biggest hurdles (overcomes fear) the quickest. Once the fear is overcome, luring ceases.

I would cite this video for your guidance. Substitute cage for play stand and you have your exact issue.

[ame="https://youtu.be/sXzbmH-6Ki4"]One Day Miracles | Don't Bite the Hand That Feeds You - YouTube[/ame]

 

[ChristaNL]

"a week ago... "



LOL my macaw did not want to leave the safety of her new cage for weeks!
(and she got upgraded from "something tortuous too small" to "semi-acceptable")
I should reread my own thread but it took her a few months even to want to come out- and I think it was 4 months before she even touched the bottom of her own cage.


Let your parrot adjust before leaping to conclusions about 'cage-territorial' and such.
Btw none of my birds is that- it is also something you either encourage of just tell them "no" about it.
The american way of "my home-cage is my castle" does not apply to european birds they are expected to behave and be corteous to guests visiting their cage.


Anyway- babybird in a new house, new rules, new cage, new owner, new habbits ... everything!
So don't blame the bird for not going all over the place at once...she needs to settle down and grow some roots first


You have a lifetime together, there is no hurry.

 

[EllenD]

I'll totally agree with what has already been said here...You don't really have any "problem" at all, as you've only had this young, baby bird for a week! This is no time at all, and I think you care deeply about your new baby, which is great, and you want to make sure you're doing everything right, but your sense of urgency is causing your patience to run-out too quickly. It sounds to me like this baby is already ahead of the curve and is doing extremely well for only being with you for a week.

It's always a marathon, not a sprint. That's what you have to constantly remind yourself about everything that has to do with any new bird you bring into your home, regardless of age, level of tameness, etc., doesn't matter, it's a marathon, not a sprint. What a lot of people don't take into account with parrots is that they are extremely intelligent, equivalent to that of a 3-4 year-old human child, and are much different in this way than most other types of pets such as dogs, cats, reptiles/amphibians, most rodents, etc. Only primates possess the intelligence that a parrot does. So it is very much like adopting a toddler and bringing them into your home, they are going to be guarded, and are absolutely going to be stubborn...

And yes, a 5 month-old parrot can be extremely cage-territorial; after only a week I don't know how "territorial" he is with his new cage, I think rather he's just found that he feels quite safe and secure when he's inside the cage, so he's not keen on being forced to come out of it just yet. And as already wisely mentioned, you should NEVER force a bird to do anything they don't want to do, especially a baby bird who you've only had for a week and have not yet earned the trust of, because it will only lead to you losing their trust, or in this case never earning it in the first place.

As already mentioned, you should always use "Positive-Reinforcement" when training a bird to do anything, including leaving their cage. It sounds to me like you've not been doing this at all, but rather you just expected this new baby bird to come right out of his cage on your command, probably because he's stepping-up regularly for you without issue, which is understandable. But you have to realize that after only being in your home and with you for just a week, your bird does not trust you yet, which is natural and normal at this point, and right now his cage is the only place he feels completely safe. So him coming-out of his cage on his own when you ask him to is not at all the same as him stepping-up for you when you ask him to, they are two totally different things you are asking of him from HIS point-of-view.

Instead of reaching your hand into his cage and simply asking him or demanding, in his view, that he come out for you, you need to train him to come out of his cage by using positive-reinforcement for him to want to do-so. I don't know if you've found what his favorite treat(s) are, but once you find them that's what you use to reward him every time he comes out of the cage when you ask him to, along with a lot of verbal praise. And realize that once he settles-in, starts to feel safe and secure in your home, and once you earn his trust, he won't be so hesitant to come out of his cage. It just takes time, it's a marathon, not a sprint. Most importantly, things must happen at HIS PACE, not your pace, if you want to earn his trust.

***As already mentioned, the size of his cage is not the issue, not at all. In my opinion and experience, that whole "don't put a new bird in a large cage when you first bring them home because they'll be "overwhelmed" by the size of it" is nothing but a total MYTH that spread around the internet, just like the the myth that says "You should not interact with a new bird, touch a new bird, or allow them to come out of their cage for the first week or weeks after bringing them home". Neither of these statements/myths are at all true. In fact, you should do the exact opposite and always buy the largest cage possible that you can afford and that you have space for when bringing home a new bird, the larger the cage the better, and the more toys the better. That's the other thing, you don't want to take away toys from the cage as long as he's playing with them; there are certain situations where a breeder doesn't put their babies into a "Weaning Cage" or a "Starter Cage" after they come out of the Brooder, and as a result the bird literally doesn't know what toys are or what they are supposed to do with them. Essentially they don't know how to "play" with toys and you literally have to show them. This is the only situation where you want to start-off by only putting 1 toy in the bird's cage so that they can learn what it is and how to play with it, and also so they will feel comfortable around toys and not be afraid of them, and then you gradually add new toys over time...But typically this is not the case, usually young birds are given different toys, foraging activities, different types of food and water dishes, perches, swings, etc., and they know what they are and what they are supposed to do with them, and usually you want to have AT LEAST 6-10 toys inside of your new bird's cage, and different types of toys at that, so that your bird does not become bored and stays busy and stimulated.

So as far as the cage and the toys go, you're fine and you definitely do not want to put him into a smaller cage with less toys, that would be counterproductive and also possibly cause other new issues, such as Feather-Destructive Behaviors, constant screaming/crying, etc. due to boredom. And in the case of your specific bird, he is already showing that he feels safe and secure inside of the larger cage that he's been in since you brought him home a week ago, so you certainly do not want to move him out of it and into ANY OTHER CAGE, whether smaller, larger, etc. After only a week your bird has adopted that cage as his "safe-space" in a new home with a new person/people. If you were to take that cage away from him and move him into ANY other cage, and the same goes for the toys, then it's very likely that this would cause all kinds of behavioral issues and you'd be taking a massive step backwards. So please do not take him out of that cage, nor remove any of the toys unless he's showing that he's definitely scared of a particular toy, sometimes that happens and it's quite obvious that a specific toy is scaring them, and in that case you should remove it. But in-general, I'd say that you're best to leave the cage/toys alone, as he's very happy in it, and the larger the cage, the more space, and the more toys the better for his physical and mental health.

****Again, it's a marathon, not a sprint. It's going to take weeks to probably months for you to totally earn the trust of your new bird, and this is totally normal. So any time you start to become frustrated or lose your patience with him because he's not doing what you're asking him or wanting him to do, just remind yourself that birds do not respond and adapt to new environments or new people quickly, they are not like dogs or any other pets, and that he is going to need a lot of time to feel totally comfortable with you and his new home...

 

[FlyBirdiesFly]

Here’s an instructional video on how to target train your parrot:
[ame="https://youtu.be/HaOicTtwIZo"]https://youtu.be/HaOicTtwIZo[/ame]

I agree with Chris. Once your bird is no longer afraid of stepping up and coming out of the cage, you’ll want to stop using the luring technique. The luring technique should only be used in the beginning so she initially overcomes that fear. Using targeting instead lets her learn how to work for a reward, which will be useful for other training you may want to do down the road.

 

[slicksimon4]

Thanks for the info guys. My bird experience is from a rescued sun conure who always wanted to be out of the cage and around the action. Not blank slate baby birds. You guys are right she is very young and is still getting acclimated. The luring trick hadn't occurred to me but we used it today. I didn't even take her out of the cage until the very end. I started by letting her get right back off several times which progressed to standing on my hand and eating it in the cage over half a dozen different sessions today.
I agree with being courteous to cage visitors. Sometimes things need moved, to be better for the bird, and it is much easier when they are there. Ok, you can reach it but its not in your way...
Patience has never been my strong suit but this bird is so much easier than another regime. I guess I just go way ahead of myself