Breeding?

[jacksmom]

What are everyone's thoughts on breeding here? I regularly go to a forum where breeding birds is treated as evil, yet quite hypocritically anyone who just purchased a new bird from a breeder is congratulated on their "new baby". They say you should only adopt, never breed, then defend the high prices on even a rescue because the bird is "rare". Really? Am I the one who was absent the day they passed out common sense?

If you are a responsible breeder, providing only optimal care, is it wrong to breed your birds? As with any animal I would ever breed and sell (I work at a coral farm) I would never sell an animal "just for the money" but because I believe it would be going to a good home, and provide joy to its owners and have a good life.

Looking for a forum that could get excited with me if I do decide to let them breed...is this the one?

 

[jacksmom]

Hmm, 14 views and no replies...

 

[sodakat]

If you need a forum to support you in order to feel right about breeding, you may never succeed. In 2009 when my (then) bonded pair produced their first clutch I spent lots of time searching for information on and hopefully a mentor who had experience with parent raised Eclectus chicks. I never did find that person. Most online parrot forums are populated by pet owners (or companion parrot owners -- however you want to phrase it). It's been my observation that "breeders" who participate on these forums don't stay long because they take quite a bit of grief. Yes, there are exceptions like Crimson and Henpecked, but there really are not many.

A species specific forum may be more helpful, if one exists for your species, or a yahoo group.

 

[jacksmom]

Thank you for the reply! Need? Heavens no. Want? Be nice!

I am not looking for a mentor, either...just a place to bounce around when my family and friends have had enough of me! No worries, pretend I never said anything!

 

[forbey]

WOW! I have to answer this one seriously ... and that takes some work.

I think the biggest steriotype of preeders is the "puppymill". I'm not sure what the parrot industry would call it's counterpart. Either way, the bird owner that breeds strictly for the money might (big might) be tempted to take shortcuts to cut down on costs to maximise profit. Additionally, if they are breeding too many pairs, breeds and/or species (birds, cats, dogs, etc.) there just isn't enough time in the day to properly maintain all the kids and the cost of labor to fill in the gaps eats away at the profit margin.

If you take into account the fact that there are many wonderful people who have animals as part of their family and allow those to breed, the chances are they are not breeding large numbers and have more time to spend caring for the young and preparing for the time they will be passed on to a permanent home.

I must add, that I personally know one couple who specializes in bird breeding. They just bought the local pet store. Their lives are wrapped up in their birds. The offspring that I have seen have been healthy, easy to handle and well "mannered". So it isn't impossible to be a commercial breeder with a heart, proper training, and facilities to create a wonderful environment for breeding birds.

It is up tothe buyer to make sure their breeders are the type you would want to get a bird from.

I think the mass breeder migh spend less time trying to place the animal in a proper home. (just speculation)

It is up to the potential buyer to investigate the origin of their future pet as much as it should be the seller's responsibility that the young are placed in good homes where they will receive the best care they can get.

Those rescuing animals and rehomig them are helping, but, until we can train our own young to understand that having 6 dogs, all on chains in the back yard with circles of dirt and dead grass does not constitute being a "pet owner". Even those who own prize hunting dogs tend to treat them better than that.

I think birds are the same, I'm constantly looking into the possibility of additional birds. Each and every time, what stops me is the question, how will this effect my family, my home, my dogs and Skittles ... then I talk myself out of it. But, at the same time, I have had dogs, , cats, budgies and finches that I have allowed to breed, not as a source of income, but as an educational opportunity for our children and a chance for our animals to experience a full circle of life.

SO, if you have pairs of birds preparing to breed and you are capable of investing the time and money to ensure the young are well cared for, ready to pass them on to someone else and you can take the time to check out the buyers. Go for it. If not, maybe it wouldn't be the right time.

Forbey

 

[JerseyWendy]

I would whole hearted be supportive and happy with you/for you, as 3 of my fids came from breeders.

Well I'm sure Ripley came from a breeder as well...the stork didnt' drop him off or anything, but I got him from a pet shop.

 

[FreddyCheeks]

I'm personally all about the small at home breeders vs. the mill style breeders.

One of the most horrible things I know of is there is someone around here that post birds on craigslist. My boss met up with the guy once and she said he pulled up in a van full of all types of birds, all might as well have been wild. She was praising the guy saying she got a great deal(she's nieve). Also told me that he said he could get any bird at a lot less than any store. I cringe at the thought of how he must have these birds housed when not in the van. Just breaks my heart.

 

[jacksmom]

Oh Forbey, thank you so much...that meant so much to me. I am the same way...would LOVE a smaller more portable bird, to carry with me everywhere - I want chickens, how cool would that be, and I want a goat, goats are awesome...and I would slave day and night to love and care for all of them, my family. And my boyfriend would be right beside me, grinning while he shoveled goat and chicken poo.

But...I can't afford that. And I wouldn't have time for the job that supports the family I have now, and I love my career with all my heart. I have a great job...aquaculturing coral. Yes, mass produced, but a healthy reef system is more like one big animal than many small ones in the end, it is a little different than puppies, or birds. And every coral I grow and sell is saving one more from being collected from the wild. Anyone ever read "The boy and the starfish"?

It is so funny what you said about prospective buyers, just a few days ago I saw a post on here, someone asking for reputable macaw breeders. Someone responds with what is obviously a mom and pop type business - love of the family pet and wanting them to have a full life eventually brought around babies. That is precisely what happened here.

When my best friend, who is actually my ex boyfriend that helped me when I first got Jack, argued with me when I said I wouldn't want to breed. I was firm on it. I said I was afraid I wouldn't find anyone who would stay with them for 50 years or more. He said "Well, I want one."

I did some research, well, a lot of research...and costs at my vet are not too bad. I found that you don't even have to band their legs if both their parents are registered at a vet, it proves they are not wild caught. We do have plenty of room, and while the budget isn't the best probably compared to some, we always sacrifice whatever we have to for our fids.

I can handle some grief...just wanted to make sure breeding behavior discussion and pics, and maybe eventually baby pics, would be appreciated here by someone. I will soon be leaving another forum because I can't admit there I am considering this, and I hate lying.

I have some very strange tales to post of behavior the past few weeks now...there is a camera in their bedroom, so I can see what they get up to when I am not around. Here is a pic for fun...

You can only see half the room in this pic, or course...there are lots more chewies hung that aren't visible here...and now there is a breeding box in there, cause Jack was dragging his wood blocks to a corner on the floor to shred, lol...

 

[JerseyWendy]

WOW, what an AWESOME setup they have!!!

And I LOVE LOVE LOVE baby pictures!!!

 

[forbey]

I guess the other way to view this is to refer to other threads and other websites where bird owners obtained their birds because they were in not-so-perfect situations and now have wonderful companions.

Looing at the largest parrot rescue facility in Illinois (I haven't found one bigger, so if I'm incorrect, I apologise.)

'Rescue the Birds' has many types of parrots, the largest group they have are Cockatoos. The problem isn't just breeders. If there weren't a bunch of untrained people watching reruns of (I just forgot the name) of a 70's show with a really cool Cockatoo, that absolutely HAVE TO HAVE one, that end up finding out it isn't as fun as it looked on TV, then the breeders would have no incentive to mass produce them.

It's the same with Paris Hilton and her Chihuahua, pitbulls, Maine Coon Cats, etc. While I was in horseshoing school, in 1978, the instructor/owner at the school gave a statistic around 60 to 70 percent of al horseowners couldn't afford the real costs associated with owning a horse (food, shelter, land for exercise, vet bills, properly maintained tack, etc.) Are parrots any different? How about picking a"free" puppy up at a local yard sale? Take it home, buy cheap food, chain it up in the yard or leave it in a cage and when it gets sick, dump it off at the local shelter because you can't afford the vet bill.

The breeding "problem" has bad actors at both ends.

Again, it all ends up in the lasps of the responsible breeders and potential owners.

 

[jacksmom]

Wow, while I was writing that post, all these others! Thank you so much, everyone, I absolutely agree...if you want a bird, you will get one, and if you can't find one raised in the type if environment pictured above, then you may buy one off a van, or from a mass producer that has been given less than perfect care.

I have worked in many pet shops that sold birds, and am very familiar with hand feeding. My mom reminded me a few weeks ago that when I was ten, I was given three finches that her friend had for three years, trying to get them to breed. I had them dropping eggs on the floor of the cage with no nest box after a couple months, and had nine finches I gave away to the pet shop after I added a nest box...they bred way too fast, I traded them all for one budgie!

 

[forbey]

Sweet set up!

As always, I'm not a breeder, or a vet, and I don't play one on TV. I'm simply commenting on 56 years of Earthly Inexperience.

I would expect Macaws are no different than any othe species, some make great parents and some shouldn't breed (humans are no exception!)

Do you have another room available for a nursery, just in case?

At what point in time do you remove a large parrot chick from it's parents to begin the process of handfeeding and socializing for humans?

Just curious, how often do your birds come outof the room for family time, or does the family go to them?

Thanks,

Forbey

 

[forbey]

I have a great job...aquaculturing coral. Yes, mass produced, but a healthy reef system is more like one big animal than many small ones in the end, it is a little different than puppies, or birds. And every coral I grow and sell is saving one more from being collected from the wild. Anyone ever read "The boy and the starfish"?

Coral, a very important life form, I never considered raising them.

"Honey, could you take the coral out for a walk, I'm busy at the moment?"

Can you teach coral to ... Play fetch? roll over? talk?

Wait ... PLAY DEAD ... good coral!

Sorry, I tried so hard to stay serious ... I failed!

neat job, just the same.

 

[jacksmom]

Oh yeah, I got Jack on trade, so spent no money...and that lil' devil has cost me a fortune, and he has never been sick. Even making all our own toys, and food, still the bills are not small if you want to provide the very best care possible.

Definitely the pet owners are responsible...but then again, they aren't. In my job selling coral, I feel I am the one being remiss if a customer puts an animal in a tank not suited for them...I must not have asked them enough questions. Can you imagine how I would be with a macaw, lol?

Family comes to them - one end of the room has a couch, which they are polite enough not to chew up or even pay attention to. I have read that you can raise the baby with the parents, if they are tame and will allow you to - and I imagine my guys probably will. I can't say we spend two hours a day interacting...not every single day, which is one reason why we wanted a companion for Jack. Since they are flock animals, too much time spent alone can mean what I view as insanity...self mutilation. Jack never showed any signs of this, and always appears supremely happy...he would just garble to himself if no one was around. In fact, lol, he is way more of a pain in the butt now that he has Paris to show off for, and it's" that time of year".

And yes, Paris was named for Paris Hilton, and lucky for her the woman who got her actually loved her a lot...I had to submit pictures of my bird room before I was allowed to buy her. But, ten years later, they were selling her...and that person is better suited for a dog as a companion. I always wanted a macaw because it would be with me so long, and the heartbreak of an animal you love dying wouldn't touch me for 50 or more years with this animal!

Oh, and a nursery...yes. Or there is always the retail shop...it will be finished in a few weeks, and it is right next door to my house. And an empty full size macaw cage. If anyone can think of anything else I should be getting ready, let me know, we are pretty far out from a fertilized egg yet, I think, Jack is not 100 percent sure just what he wants to do, lol...but I rather be prepared just in case. Pretty sure I can get formula in town if I need it...

It is a good question...would they make good parents? Does it matter as long as they have healthy offspring? The temperament of these two is just awesome...people have no idea I have birds unless I show them, or a wolf whistle rings out unexplained, lol...

 

[crimson]

If you need a forum to support you in order to feel right about breeding, you may never succeed. In 2009 when my (then) bonded pair produced their first clutch I spent lots of time searching for information on and hopefully a mentor who had experience with parent raised Eclectus chicks. I never did find that person. Most online parrot forums are populated by pet owners (or companion parrot owners -- however you want to phrase it). It's been my observation that "breeders" who participate on these forums don't stay long because they take quite a bit of grief. Yes, there are exceptions like Crimson and Henpecked, but there really are not many.

A species specific forum may be more helpful, if one exists for your species, or a yahoo group.

thank you Sodakat,,, I came on here to learn. I have too many questions rolling around in my head at times, and no where else can I turn to but here!!

Breeding takes an extreme amount of dedication, love and time. you either like it or you don't.
Personally I adore it. All my birds (pets and breeders) are in huge flight cages, plenty of toys, various perches, and an abundance of food which keeps them happy and healthy. Nutrients,vitamins,calcium,iodine,the list goes on and on.

everyone on here knows I cry like a baby when one of my birds die, I always take it personally unless it is old age.

each one of my 30+ birds has a name, and I love them all.
the cost is plenty for supply and demand. I have rescued many birds.

for example, one of my tame/breeder birds Dexter, had his mate removed yesterday to prevent future breeding until the female is ready again in about 4 months time....he has been calling for her non-stop for over 24 hours. I feel so badly for him, I went out and bought a beautiful little budgie to keep him company. I hardly need yet another bird, but he is lonely, so if I can ease him into being a little happier, then that is what I do.
that is just the way I am....keep my flock happy and mom is happy

All of my birds, or babies raised are re-homed into proper caring owners.
Like Sodakat said, there are not many breeders on here, but I for one am not going anywhere, I enjoy it on here, and learn plenty.
I never profess that I know everything, which I don't, and have a lot to learn.
Birds are fascinating creatures, and should be treated with the utmost respect, which I always convey to my customers.

 

[Mayden]

I think there are a few people on this forum that are very much against people breeding birds - but we also have some breeders!

I think if you're against breeding birds and don't want to partake in the discussion of the ickle cutsie chickie poos, stay off that thread!

I'm all for rescues and rehomes etc. But I got Merlin at 8 weeks old, so not long from the breeder. I know plenty of breeders who do homechecks, meet prospective parents etc. and then there are some who will sell to the highest bidder or first come first serve.

I prefer the first choice. I wasn't vetted by the person who sold me Merlin - but I'd be volunteering for them for a few months by that point, so I don't think they had to ask. I'll probably take a rehome or rescue in next. As I don't want to be 'promoting' the sale of baby birds. (Particularly cags, 'toos and macaws who are overbred and rehomed FAR too quickly)

Some birds I'm all for breeding, others less so. I've come across maybe three solomon island 'too breeders here in the UK. But I could probably dig up 60 people in an instance for an african grey.

If there's ethics involved in breeding then I'm generally okay with it, but would rather see it less. But perhaps more breeding dedicated to the 'less common' species of birdies.

Kinda like the mass overbreeding of staffie dogs here in the UK atm. You go to ANY rescue (that's not breed specific) and you'll find that around 80% of the dogs are staffy/mix dogs. It's a real shame because they're wonderful dogs but so many get them (because everyone else has one!) and don't realise the work involved then they end up in a rescue. Sad story and it happens too often with a fair few bird species too. Now I always bare a slight grudge to people who don't spay/neuter their dogs and those who purposely breed dogs like staffies (not because I hate staffs, I don't!) because there are just SO many out there needing a home already, why bring more pups into the mix because you're gonna get £300+ a pup?

Anywho, we generally all love pictures, be it old birdies or pictures of eggs, bring them all here!

 

[jacksmom]

Mayden, that was great...I feel exactly the way you do...and refused to even look for a baby when I wanted a companion for Jack. (okay, okay, and I didn't hate the idea of another B&G!) I went to craigslist, looking for anything not plucked needing to be adopted. I would always encourage this, but as you know...not many people want a ten year old bird that may never bond with them. (I got lucky, Paris adores me...but apparently I have a knack for that...at all the pet stores I worked I was the only one eventually able to handle the biters, I took ot as a personal thing they didn't like me, and worked my butt off to show them I could be a great friend, lol)

About the rescues...very confusing. If you can find one that has macaws, they will cost almost as much as a baby from a breeder. Now, why would the average person looking for a macaw ever pay that for a plucked chicken that bites? And the NOT average person, the one that has more time and love than money...willing to put in the effort for the love of the animal...you rob that person of having a shot of adopting that animal by putting the cost so high. :what: Costs to rehabilitate a damaged macaw like that would be high enough...

I will bring on the pics and strange tales for your amusement...but I got to get to work now, make some money to pay for the next batch of bird chop!

 

[henpecked]

Hey jacksmom, i breed amazons, very similar to Macaws. I don't mess with them now but did at one time. You can always PM me if you have question and are afraid of posting onthe open forum. Richard

 

[jacksmom]

I really appreciate that, Henpecked...in the 24 hrs this has been up, though, not one person has tried to make me feel bad...it seems Mayden's feeling was picked up by the whole forum...I pretty much stated I knew some people would feel like that, and asked if I was going to get smashed. No one did. And lots of people spoke up, with different opinions...not all of them the same, but nobody being mean.

So, if nobody wants to approve of the cutesy ickle ittle chicky poo, they apparently know how to not ruin anyone else's good day...how nice!!! I will return the favor by not pushing my beliefs on anyone else not asking for it!

Though I will totally pm you if you miss my post...as you know, good info can be hard to find! But one reason I wanted to have threads on a forum about this is that I have gotten so much help on forums. And there is almost no information out there on this. Pay it forward, ya know? The other reason is record...I am bad at paperwork, and these posts are saved for as long as the forum exists, and come with dates. I can know what happened when.

 

[sodakat]

I'm curious if the two of them are mating yet. You said you put up a nestbox, right? In my experience with my Eclectus who breed, the nestbox can result in the hen laying eggs regardless if they have mated. Older experienced hens will solicit mating when you put up a nest box, but younger or inexperienced hens often go to work on the nest, skipping the mating part, and start laying infertile eggs.

Edit: I guess what I'm asking is, how long have these birds been together and do they act like a pair? Not all birds *will* mate.