Birds of a feather... don't flock together

[MissMac]

I have quite a problem. My two IRN 9 month old girls seem to not like each other. Missy I hand reared from 5 weeks and Gracie I got after she was weaned at 3 - 4 months old. I
It used to be Gracie bullying Missy but now it looks like the tables are turned and Missy is having none of it, to the point where she will upturn a food bowl if Gracie tries to stop her eating - even tho they each have a bowl to themselves.
Now I know that 9 months is about the time they start bluffing but it isn't happening with me and it is the middle of winter here so it might be a spring/summer thing. And both of them are fine with me, Missy more so naturally but Gracie is slowly getting closer.
I don't know what to do. I don't have the room to separate them and all I have been doing is disrupting the fight... which sees both of them turn and get all puffed up and beady eyed at me.
Any suggestions or thoughts?

 

[Cottonoid]

I haven't had two birds (yet! ha!) and I also haven't been through a full winter-spring with mine yet, but I wonder if they're just starting to act like they would during hormonal seasons. More territorial and feisty.

All the normal hormone-reducing ideas - make sure they're getting 12 hours of sleep, decrease sugary foods (fruit), make sure they don't have nesty dark spots during the day.

And then maybe try to take a notebook and keep a really detailed log of what they're doing all day - maybe you'll see a pattern of what is leading UP to them getting cranky with each other. Like if Missy prefers to play with toys on her own, but Gracie always tries to play with HER instead, and Missy gets feisty - that gives you good information and places where you can change the routine of ramping up to fighting. If you think there might be a dynamic like that, where one wants more interaction and the other doesn't, maybe you can take the one that wants playtime aside and do five minutes of training or treats or anything that works for where you're at, to break the cycle.

I have two friends that each have a set of (human) twins going through the toddler years right now - and it's intense trying to figure out how to meet the needs of two tiny people with totally different wants, while also helping guide them to grow up. And they can't even fly

 

[MissMac]

I haven't had two birds (yet! ha!) and I also haven't been through a full winter-spring with mine yet, but I wonder if they're just starting to act like they would during hormonal seasons. More territorial and feisty.

All the normal hormone-reducing ideas - make sure they're getting 12 hours of sleep, decrease sugary foods (fruit), make sure they don't have nesty dark spots during the day.

And then maybe try to take a notebook and keep a really detailed log of what they're doing all day - maybe you'll see a pattern of what is leading UP to them getting cranky with each other. Like if Missy prefers to play with toys on her own, but Gracie always tries to play with HER instead, and Missy gets feisty - that gives you good information and places where you can change the routine of ramping up to fighting. If you think there might be a dynamic like that, where one wants more interaction and the other doesn't, maybe you can take the one that wants playtime aside and do five minutes of training or treats or anything that works for where you're at, to break the cycle.

I have two friends that each have a set of (human) twins going through the toddler years right now - and it's intense trying to figure out how to meet the needs of two tiny people with totally different wants, while also helping guide them to grow up. And they can't even fly

Neither of my birds can fly. Both are clipped. Yeah Missy thinks I am her mum so she is pretty glued to me. Gracie has always preferred her own company and she kind of taught Missy how to play with toys, although she still doesn't play with them much. But since the tables have turned and Missy is standing up for herself now, Gracie is trying hard to get away from her.... sometimes being forced to take flight - and she was clipped when I got her so she doesn't know how to fly. She is pretty jumpy too. Someone walks past the window and she jumps.
It's funny but when I run interference with their fight, they both turn their aggressions to me. It's like hey guys, I'm doing this for you and this is the thanks I get?

 

[Squeeing_Onion]

Neither of my birds can fly. Both are clipped. Yeah Missy thinks I am her mum so she is pretty glued to me. Gracie has always preferred her own company and she kind of taught Missy how to play with toys, although she still doesn't play with them much. But since the tables have turned and Missy is standing up for herself now, Gracie is trying hard to get away from her.... sometimes being forced to take flight - and she was clipped when I got her so she doesn't know how to fly. She is pretty jumpy too. Someone walks past the window and she jumps.
It's funny but when I run interference with their fight, they both turn their aggressions to me. It's like hey guys, I'm doing this for you and this is the thanks I get?

EDIT EDIT: omg, wow, I really need my glasses. I misread "fight" for "flight," sorry!


Edit: I just wrote all this then reaized, I might not actually be sure if I understood you right. By "run interference with their flight" did you mean try to catch them/give them somewhere to perch on you?

~~

It actually makes total sense to me that they might be aggressive with an interrupted flight -- in a natural flock, birds wouldn't cross each other's paths on purpose except if they were trying to show off or be aggressive. A clipped bird can't control their flight as a bird's body is meant to, and that can really mess with their mental and emotional perception of interactions it affects.

Clipped birds have a whole different dynamic of behavior and information processing than a flighted bird, and they tend to be far harder to keep truly content and happy than a bird who is fully flighted.

Flight is also not as instinctual to birds as many myths would have us believe -- Taking off is instinctual, but the actual skill of flight is a learned skill. I've taught three birds how to fly who either didn't know or were just not very good at it when I got them, and it was an interesting experience for every one.

If you haven't, I highly encourage doing some research into flight training, and teaching your birds to enjoy flying to you. It will help their confidence, their physical and mental health, and will with time eliminate the danger of them falling and needing to interfere with their flight to begin with.

 

[MissMac]

EDIT EDIT: omg, wow, I really need my glasses. I misread "fight" for "flight," sorry!


Edit: I just wrote all this then reaized, I might not actually be sure if I understood you right. By "run interference with their flight" did you mean try to catch them/give them somewhere to perch on you?

~~

It actually makes total sense to me that they might be aggressive with an interrupted flight -- in a natural flock, birds wouldn't cross each other's paths on purpose except if they were trying to show off or be aggressive. A clipped bird can't control their flight as a bird's body is meant to, and that can really mess with their mental and emotional perception of interactions it affects.

Clipped birds have a whole different dynamic of behavior and information processing than a flighted bird, and they tend to be far harder to keep truly content and happy than a bird who is fully flighted.

Flight is also not as instinctual to birds as many myths would have us believe -- Taking off is instinctual, but the actual skill of flight is a learned skill. I've taught three birds how to fly who either didn't know or were just not very good at it when I got them, and it was an interesting experience for every one.

If you haven't, I highly encourage doing some research into flight training, and teaching your birds to enjoy flying to you. It will help their confidence, their physical and mental health, and will with time eliminate the danger of them falling and needing to interfere with their flight to begin with.

Yes it's the little things that can much up the whole meaning of the sentence.
Missy was taught to fly by me as I reared her from 5 weeks. Gracie never learnt to fly before she was clipped. Missy is now clipped too. I had to. I had no control over her at all and she was getting into everything, all my artwork, and destroying it and no matter how much I trained her she just wouldn't stop. Since clipping her (and she can still fly - it just takes more effort now) we have become even closer. She will let me give her head scritches and everything now.
It's the middle of winter here so it can't be hormonal - Heaven help me when that comes. I am still hoping it will settle but I do worry for Gracie.
She comes to me on her own will, but still insists on nipping me. Makes no sense. The photo shows how she tells me she wants me to bring her down to me. Right between me and the computer screen. Of course she can climb down the back of the computer screen as I have a cloth draped over the vent to stop bird stuff from getting in. Or she can go further across to the side play gym and climb down that to me. Funnily Missy now does that too....

 

[Squeeing_Onion]

Yes it's the little things that can much up the whole meaning of the sentence.
Missy was taught to fly by me as I reared her from 5 weeks. Gracie never learnt to fly before she was clipped. Missy is now clipped too. I had to. I had no control over her at all and she was getting into everything, all my artwork, and destroying it and no matter how much I trained her she just wouldn't stop. Since clipping her (and she can still fly - it just takes more effort now) we have become even closer. She will let me give her head scritches and everything now.
It's the middle of winter here so it can't be hormonal - Heaven help me when that comes. I am still hoping it will settle but I do worry for Gracie.
She comes to me on her own will, but still insists on nipping me. Makes no sense. The photo shows how she tells me she wants me to bring her down to me. Right between me and the computer screen. Of course she can climb down the back of the computer screen as I have a cloth draped over the vent to stop bird stuff from getting in. Or she can go further across to the side play gym and climb down that to me. Funnily Missy now does that too....

I often say my parrots are "cats with wings" -- they are exceptional at getting in the middle of whatever I am focusing on, to redirect my focus onto them instead when they want my attention.

Bongo's favorite target is my laptop and Ipad.

As for the flying over and nipping you -- It might not make sense to you currently, but I am a firm believer that there is always a reason for any given behavior, whether it's a good reason or not, it makes sense to the bird performing the action.

Bongo was surrendered to me largely because her previous owner knew he wasn't giving her what she needed, and because she had bitten his ear. Just ran up his arm one day and started chomping him "out of the blue." And that was it for them, he lost trust, and she lost trust in him because he grabbed her off his shoulder forcefully, and likely threw her away. She was traumatized from fingers and hands over her head for months until I worked her through it.

I wish I could cite where I saw it, and I believe it may have even been from someone on this forum -- but I read somewhere about parrot behavior in the wild, where if their mate is not running away from danger, they will bite them to tell them to flee.

In Bongo's case -- I suspect that was what happened there with her past owner. She has bitten my ear twice, the same pattern of behavior. The only difference is I was able to figure out what triggered it, and figure out what she was trying to tell me, and then I was able to respond to teach her she didn't have to be afraid of what she was scared of.

The first time -- I had put a hat on. Bongo was terrified of the hat. Screaming at it didn't make the hat run away from my head. Screaming at me didn't make me realize the 'danger' and run away from the hat attached to my head.

So she ran up my arm and bit the hat -- and it didn't move, of course, being a fearless hat, so then she began immediately biting my neck to tell ME to run away. It all happened in a matter of seconds, and I ended up with some bruises and welts from it. I took time to desensitize her and get her used to hats.

She did the same behavior again months later when I cut my hair from long to short, and the difference freaked her out. Since I worked her through those two 'episodes,' she is now well beyond that.

I can't tell you why your bird is nipping you without knowing a lot more about the situaitons in which it happens, but I can tell you, there's definitely a reason for it somewhere, and with enough patience and observation, you should be able to figure it out so you can re-teach her a healthier way to communicate to you whatever it is she is trying to get across.

Bongo sometimes nips me because she literally isn't aware of how strong her beak is and how fragile my skin is sometimes, or if she's distracted and forgets. My girl began as a super big biter though, which is largely where I think that behavior has come from. I had to teach her how to be gentle in her nips so she wasn't bruising me or breaking skin. Now, she can nip me gently to tell me if she doesn't like something.

 

[MissMac]

As for the flying over and nipping you

Gracie can't fly... she requests I get her. I bring her down from where she is, usually hanging between me and the computer screen. Literally... like the photo shows. I agree with you that she is trying to tell me something... the hard part is deciphering what exactly.
All I can think of is that her fear of Missy may be making her bite me to be aware that there is a fear. I will keep a wide eye on it today to see if there is a link. When she does nip I don't fling her either. I tell her no to begin with. "No Gracie, don't bite". Okay so she won't understand exactly what I am saying but they are intelligent enough to understand sound repeats... eventually. Which is how they learn to talk, by mimicking sound repeats they hear in their daily lives. If it continues I will put her down somewhere. Depending on the ferocity of her biting as to where I put her. She has been known to bite me hard so I put her back on the complex and she will walk all the way back to me and we have a repeat of what just happened. I try to distract her with toys now so as to not feel the need to bite. She's odd, in that I can offer her toys, some she was just playing with and dropped on the floor for me to pick up, and she will quite literally throw... like it's got cootees or something now. Missy is my child. Well I guess I am, in her eyes, and THAT, might be the issue. I do fuss on Gracie. I am so not wanting her to not feel as loved as Missy is. When Missy was flying freely - all over the place, I was constantly having to deal with her. Maybe Gracie is still thinking Missy is being naughty... and she is... to Gracie. They will be throwing bites at each other and I will interfere, usually with my hand, and they both turn their fight to me... Yes there needs to be a birdy translator out there. The Bird Whisperer.
I need to get their fighting sorted first as I do worry Gracie might hurt herself in trying to avoid Missy. When they met each other they were fine with each other. The slept together, could sit next to each other with no issue. Something has definitely changed and all I can think of is Missy can fly like she used to. Then, to begin with it was Gracie that was being the biotch, Missy was still flying then too, so it can't be that. Now Missy is the biotch. Maybe I'm next, lol.

 

[HeatherG]

Do your girls have their own cage or sleep cage? That might help a lot.

My Birds have bit me when they were alarmed about something. For example, to let me know the vacuum cleaner was near. Unfortunately I’m not covered with feathers so their warning bite connects. I understand that they love me and are just very worried for our safety.

You probably have some jealousy going on as well. Quite a love triangle! Oh dear.

 

[MissMac]

Do your girls have their own cage or sleep cage? That might help a lot.

My Birds have bit me when they were alarmed about something. For example, to let me know the vacuum cleaner was near. Unfortunately I’m not covered with feathers so their warning bite connects. I understand that they love me and are just very worried for our safety.

You probably have some jealousy going on as well. Quite a love triangle! Oh dear.

Alas space is greatly limited for me, so they share a sleep cage.
They're only in it for bed and apart from some bickering upon first entering they're quite okay in there together.... atm... Missy is hormonal, Gracie is up next.