Bird breeder sold me the wrong macaw hybrid?

[Greenclaws]

So... I think the breeder sold me the wrong macaw hybrid. I had my suspicions because Raja looks nothing like other Jubilee macaws (75% greenwing, 25% blue and gold). Yesterday I talked to the lady who handfed and kept her most of her life, she was under the impression that "jubilee" was just a term for a random hybrid that had no name. I asked her how the breeder kept track of all her birds and she said she didn't know. She's handfeeding 12 babies right now for the breeder and almost none have feathers. The breeder just takes them back when they're older and sells them as what she thinks they are. I called the breeder today and asked her what my baby was. For starters she kept referring to her as a "he." She at first said a Ruby was a harlequin/greenwing mix, then changed her mind and said no, that's a jubilee, then changed it again and said jubilees are catalina/greenwing, then said "oh wait, I don't have any Catalinas" and THEN assured me I had received a harlequin/greenwing as I had paid for. I asked for her to mail me all the documents that come with Raja and she said she doesn't have any other than the proof that she got her vaccine. I asked for her hatch date and she said look on her listings and it'll be there. So I took screenshots of her listings on birdbreeders. This is the icing on the cake. All three pictures of available listings are of MY BIRD! One listing says "hybrid", one days "ruby", one says "jubilee." I wouldn't care because she's beautiful and i'm attached to her, but with every passing day she gets more and more beaky and nippy. When I considered macaw species and hybrids, my only rule was that I didn't want a scarlet hybrid due to their nippy nature. I'm 99% sure that my baby is a ruby macaw which is half scarlet.



What can I do? I'm attached to her but am afraid her mouthiness will just get worse. Is she just being rough because she's young, like a puppy would be? She is 5 months old and im still handfeeding her so does it have to do with her weaning herself right now? If she gets worse, can I ask for a refund if I was never given a bill of sale or any documentation with my bird? I'm so torn and aggravated.


I know its not me mishandling her because she clearly lets me know that she wants out and when i leave the room she flies off her perch to go look for me and she always comes when i say "come here". She just randomly whips her head around and nips me when im holding her or petting her, for no apparent reason. If I try to put her down and she's scared or not ready, she chomps down hard on my arm. The handfeeder lady swore up and down that she was a very docile and loving bird. But then she told me that the reason she got Raja in her care was that she was TERRIFIED of people as a baby and the breeder didnt know how to deal with her so she let her friend raise her. Im just generally confused and pretty upset. This was going to be my one and only macaw, my dream bird. I'm attached and commited now and will take it day by day, but i just needed to share this experience and get some support.


I can post screenshots of the listings, if admin will let me know its OK since the bird breeder's name is on there. Or i can just post pictures of Raja for you guys' opinions on her parentage.

 

[Birdman666]

Well, I can understand why you're upset, but I really don't know that there is anything you can do about it. Except work with the bird over beakiness and bite pressure issues to reduce those issues.

I HAD a ruby macaw. One of the smartest birds I ever worked with... and also one of the prettiest. She came to me as a biter, and I got her turned around and bite pressure trained, and she was adopted out.

Could also be the normal macaw testing phase. They're docile as babies, but then suddenly they're not. That's when you really have to be firm with them, and set the rules.

Absolutely unethical and crappy breeder in my opinion...

The purpose of the friggin' bands is to maintain a record of the bird from hatching through death. What kind of record keeping is this?!

Sounds like a bird broker, not a breeder. There are A LOT of those out there... and most of them SUCK!

 

[getwozzy]

If you can just post pictures of Raja, that would be great

I don't have any Mac experience, but my 0.02 is that she's just being beaky because she's still very very young- bite pressure training and beak play will help you work through these issues.

 

[Birdman666]

Are the facial feathers black, or red, or some combination of both, or no facial stripes?

GW hybrids have red facial feathers. All others have black. If there's red and no black, obviously, since GW have red, and scarlet's have none... it's got GW in it.

If it's got black facial feathers, then it's got some other mix in it.

If it's got NO facial feathers, then the dominant bird was a scarlett.

If it's got red and black, then it's got GW AND SOME OTHER MAC.

Here's a good photo of my Shamrock Mac. You can clearly see the two tone facial feathers.

All red facial with a green and yellow wing band would scream RUBY mac to me.

If there's ANY black in the facial feathers then it's not a Ruby.

Does that help?!

 

[SilverSage]

Conures also have a rep for being nippy. If I had a dime for every time someone told me they don't want a green cheek because they are biters... Well I could buy a nice meal for myself! I have five tame GCCs. Guess how many are biters? None. Guess how many came to me as biters? Two. Training is training, there is no way around it. You mention she bites when she is scared and you try to put her down - don't you think that sounds normal? In my opinion most bites are rooted in fear or hormones at least when the habit starts, but if we are not careful we can reinforce it into a habit that is hard to break. Also, you said she bites when you are petting her, when you are petting her how? Does she do it when you touch a certain place, or spend too long in one place? Are you carefully watching her body language and eyes to see if she is asking politely for you to stop before she has to ask a bit more rudely by biting you? Also, if a chick is terrified with by humans and comes from a breeder who doesn't know how to deal with that, that is a huge red flag and there could be a LOT more than "too much scarlet macaw" going on with her and in her past, which you need to consider. I posted recently about my rescue who is sweet as pie, unless you forget to tuck your thumb when you pick her up., and then she attacks! Why? Because of something that happened to her in her last home. So be patient and consistent we her. Decide now if you are going to keep her. If you cannot get your mind to a place of being glad she is the one you got, and over being disappointed with her or unhappy with the bird you purchased, return her. No bird deserves to be the source of disappointment like that, and I wholeheartedly believe they'd will feel it. If you do return her, DO NOT get your next bird from this breeder. She sounds utterly irresponsible. If she can be that careless, I hate to think what else goes on with her birds and customers! Yes, every bird deserves a home, but every time you pay someone who is doing the wrong thing you are incentivizing them to keep doing the wrong thing, which harms more and more birds. My suggestion is to work on the training, and eliminate "scarlet nippiness" from your thoughts. A parrot is a parrot, and while species can very much dictate tendencies, a bird that smart can be taught to behave as long as the owner is smart enough to pay attention. Remember, communication goes BOTH WAYS. You need to learn how she asks you to stop doing something, and then respect it so she no longer feels the need to bite. Once a bird realizes that the only way to stop you is to bite you, they often start to skip the warning and go straight to the bite, and that is hard to deal with.

 

[Birdman666]

I don't have any Mac experience, but my 0.02 is that she's just being beaky because she's still very very young- bite pressure training and beak play will help you work through these issues.

Could be just going through the "opinionated" and "testing" phase. That stuff usually starts pretty early on.

Firm hand, emphasis on boundary setting, control the beak when stepping up or setting down, and maintain eye contact. Work on bite pressure training. It could be this bird is just now discovering their bite pressure. (Which is actually about right on schedule. Babies are docile. Opinionated, Tantrum-prone Juveniles are the anti-docile.) Opinionated macaws use their beaks to communicate, you need to teach them to tone it down, or it gets worse!

Mr. Towel generally helps opinionated macaws with their attitude problems. Juvenille macaws quickly discover that bad behaviors (1) earn them a time out, or (2) get them what ever they want.

I'd choose option number 1 if I were you!!!

(Oh, wait, I've been you, several times! This is probably just a phase... )

 

[getwozzy]

Mark- sounds like a typical toddler lol does "terrible twos" ring a bell???? lol

 

[thekarens]

Zoe's latest antics are too go from mush mac to lunging at my face/eyes. She's completely comfortable with us now, so I've been expecting this. She's testing her boundaries. Birdman gives good advice.

 

[Birdman666]

You mention she bites when she is scared and you try to put her down - don't you think that sounds normal? In my opinion most bites are rooted in fear or hormones at least when the habit starts, but if we are not careful we can reinforce it into a habit that is hard to break.

Also, you said she bites when you are petting her, when you are petting her how? Does she do it when you touch a certain place, or spend too long in one place? Are you carefully watching her body language and eyes to see if she is asking politely for you to stop before she has to ask a bit more rudely by biting you?

Also, if a chick is terrified with by humans and comes from a breeder who doesn't know how to deal with that, that is a huge red flag and there could be a LOT more than "too much scarlet macaw" going on with her and in her past, which you need to consider.

My suggestion is to work on the training, and eliminate "scarlet nippiness" from your thoughts. A parrot is a parrot, and while species can very much dictate tendencies, a bird that smart can be taught to behave as long as the owner is smart enough to pay attention. Remember, communication goes BOTH WAYS. You need to learn how she asks you to stop doing something, and then respect it so she no longer feels the need to bite. Once a bird realizes that the only way to stop you is to bite you, they often start to skip the warning and go straight to the bite, and that is hard to deal with.

Lots of good points in there ESPECIALLY THE ONE ABOUT THE BREEDER NOT KNOWING HOW TO DEAL WITH A BABIES ISSUES... WENDY CRAIG SHOULD SLAP THIS @#$&*! Red flag? Y'think?!

Two fingers on the beak when picking up or setting down eliminates that particular behavior. Also training the bird to be picked up BY the beak, eliminates that behavior. Those are simple "train the humans" behavior mods that will eliminate a lot of those biting behaviors. Keep that up when picking up or setting down, until he gets the hint and stops doing it.

Having said that, scarlet beakiness issues ARE REAL, and I can explain it like this: Macs are very tactile with their beaks and their tongues. They put their tongues on practically everything. With Scarlet's you get BEAK AND TONGUE. They are also prone to communicate (sometimes rather forcefully) with their beaks. Which is different than the normal fight/flight biting reaction. "Hey look at that! (beak!) Hi! Happy to see you! (beak!) I don't like that! (beak!) I do like that! (beak!) No, go back, I wasn't done yet! (beak!)"

Beaking behavior is entirely different from biting behavior.

Biting behavior is a fight or flight reaction and/or startle stimulus. Beaky is an attempt to communicate. Just as amazons communicate with eye flashes and tail flairs. Scarlet's, militaries, and buffons are the beakiest macaws. But they all do it to some extent. (Maggie will occasionally grab me with her beak when I'm walking by...) The beakier species tend to do it more often.

Of course, the answer with scarlet's (and hybrids) is to train them to do this gently. It's a natural behavior, and your chances of training him out of it completely is about the same as my making it through the day without my greenwing shoving her tongue in my eyeball...

SO INSTEAD YOU TRAIN THEM TO BE GENTLE.

Like Sweepea used to tug on my ear and poke holes in it with the tip of her beak. Now she just tugs on my ear. But it took a month or two to get 100% to that point when she was young. And I had little pin holes in the top of my ears until she got it.

This is the price of macaw ownership.

 

[Birdman666]

Mark- sounds like a typical toddler lol does "terrible twos" ring a bell???? lol

EVERY macaw goes through the testing phase. With the good ones, it doesn't last long - 6 months or less. And it isn't that bad.

With the bad ones? They'll keep it up until someone puts a stop to it...

Abso-friggin-lutely!

Sweepea went through a testing phase that drove me nuts for 3-4 months.

Maggie was already an adult when I got her. All I had to do was set the boundaries. 4 days... total! And frankly, after 8 years in solitary she was so relieved to finally be out of her cage, and played with that she was somewhere beyond simple to work with. She has an amazing tempernment. Pea Pod occasionally pitches a fit. Maggie never has.

But my rehabs that were permissive parented?! Some of those were HUGE behavior mod projects... That Ruby macaw rehab took 8 months it had been so poorly raised! ZERO discipline...

Had a greenwing that was chasing people around the house.

Woody, also would chase people around the house with intent to maim...

So, yeah. Discipline!

 

[Kiwibird]

I can't think of a parrot species who DOESN'T have a "reputation" for being "nippy" or "aggressive". However, those traits are mostly due to how humans work with the bird, and unintentional reinforcement of aggressive behavior. And as Birdman mentioned, most young birds go through a "terrible twos" phase where they are testing their limits. They also go through a time when they reach sexual maturity where they also become nippy and aggressive due to hormones (and must be dealt with as not to encourage/worsen it). Sounds like Raja is entering her "naughty baby" phase. Now is the time to really work to teach her what is and isn't acceptable behavior in YOUR "flock". As a young bird, she doesn't know how to act, so she's figuring out if nipping is ok or not. Start bite pressure training her NOW.

As for what you can do in regards to her being a different species, I'm not sure theres much you can do (unless you want to return her). But before you do that, ask yourself would you give up a child because they had a naughty streak? More than likely, you'd probably figure out positive steps to deal with it, which you can absolutely do with Raja. And remember, word of mouth is HUGE for business. Let everyone and anyone you can who may purchase a bird from these people that they don't know what they're doing and are selling birds that aren't the species they say.

 

[RavensGryf]

That "breeder" if you want to call her that is disgusting!! From what you say, she doesn't know the bare basics - like what species she keeps (doesn't even know the product she represents and sells), and basic macaw handling (was at her friend's before the handfeeder cause she didn't know what to do), and what breeder doesn't keep records?!! Completely irresponsible.

I do understand that everyone who aspires to be a breeder must learn somehow, but YOU'D THINK that by the time one is to the point of having a pretty good sized operation with high end birds, that they'd know what they're doing!
It's a shame that there are so many 'breeders' and brokers who care only about the profit and nothing about much else.

To be a breeder of different macaw species and not know what's what in your own operation just floors me. I mean, it's so basic!

I'm sorry you had to go through this. Lots of good advice and macaw support on this forum from Mark (birdman666) and other experienced macaw people here to help you along.

 

[Birdman666]

I can't think of a parrot species who DOESN'T have a "reputation" for being "nippy" or "aggressive". However, those traits are mostly due to how humans work with the bird, and unintentional reinforcement of aggressive behavior.

Scarlet's are different. You're just gonna have to trust me on this one. And it's not nippy. It's beaky. (Beaky is not biting. It's communicating. It's tactile. It's expressive with the beak.)

That doesn't mean they are bad birds. My old girlfriend had a Scarlet - from Wendy - raised by Rachel from the time she finished hand feeding - that - to give you a prime example: I was in the shower. The bird wanted to take a shower too. hopped in the tub, and CLIMBED UP MY NAKED BODY FROM MY FOOT ALL THE WAY TO MY SHOULDER BY PINCHING MY SKIN WITH THE CORNER OF ITS BEAK SO GENTLY THAT IT DID NOT HURT IN THE SLIGHTEST BIT!

Best lap bird you could ask for!

BUT... Wendy Craig was the breeder, and Rachel raised this bird correctly from day one! THAT is how you raise a Scarlett...

 

[SilverSage]

Also, minor soap box here, ravensgryf mentioned that every breeder has to start somewhere. I know this is a little off topic, but that is the WORST excuse ever for this kind of nonsense. I am relatively new to breeding, but you know what I do? I RESEARCH ALL THE TIME! Even last night in bed, husband asleep by my side, reading up on my Maxis. Yes, I have read it a lot before, but I like to remind myself, and find new things. I research nutrition, behavior, developmental stages, origin, everything I can think of I read about, so when I do something wrong (which is not all that rare) it is not because I wasn't trying. I also keep records, practice good customer service, and I KNOW WHICH SPECIES I AM BREEDING. If you lack the basic knowledge of a species, or breeding that species that Google could tell you in 10 minutes, you are not ready to be breeding. Yes you "start somewhere" but there is a reason the written drivers test is taken before the road test. This breeder cannot hide behind that excuse. Some people can, people who are digging up every scrap they can on he heir species and doing their best for them, not people who are careless with their birds and customers.

End rant.

To be clear ravensgryf, I know you were not defending this breeder.

 

[labell]

I have personal experience with this breeder she is in her 70's, old school and in WAY over her head with too many pairs, she has multiple hand feeders and they lie back and forth to cover themselves, one blaming the other with NO resolution!
She actually told me to chew up some egg and feed the baby with it after the food had been in MY MOUTH! Along with many other things that just had me shaking my head, had I not been as experienced in hand feeding, many years and many species this could have ended very badly. I let her know I was NOT happy, she asked if I would give her a good rating and I declined.

 

[Greenclaws]

Well, I can understand why you're upset, but I really don't know that there is anything you can do about it. Except work with the bird over beakiness and bite pressure issues to reduce those issues.

I HAD a ruby macaw. One of the smartest birds I ever worked with... and also one of the prettiest. She came to me as a biter, and I got her turned around and bite pressure trained, and she was adopted out.

Could also be the normal macaw testing phase. They're docile as babies, but then suddenly they're not. That's when you really have to be firm with them, and set the rules.

Absolutely unethical and crappy breeder in my opinion...

The purpose of the friggin' bands is to maintain a record of the bird from hatching through death. What kind of record keeping is this?!

Sounds like a bird broker, not a breeder. There are A LOT of those out there... and most of them SUCK!

She didn't come with a band on her. I understand some people don't like to band because they can get caught on things and injure the birds. But when you THAT many birds, it seems like some toe of system should be in place!

I want to start socializing her young but maybe its not so important to start ASAP? Should I just focus on training her with myself and wait until she steps up 100% of the time with me and knows a few tricks before I start letting other people pet her and eventually have her step up for them? I'm just afraid if I don't introduce her to meeting new people now, she'll get set in her ways as a bird that only tolerates one person. I know I'll always be her favorite but its be nice if, when we go out, people can give her treats and maybe pet her. It's make leaving town easy too if a friend or family could take her in and out of her cage

 

[weco]

You really need to run all of this by your attorney...depending on where you live, you may or may not have legal recourse, however, the onus will be on you to prove everything you're suspecting.....if you've never been involved in a civil action and/or don't have an attorney, ask around & find the best ruthless atty around where you live.....

Several years ago, I read an article about COI barcoding (DNA testing) being useful in determining a bird's lineage.....I never followed up on it, but if it can be used to determine a lineage, I would think it could be used to determine the species in that lineage...just some thoughts you might need to consider.....

Good luck.....

 

[weco]

I'm not sure if this was what I read, but it would give you a beginning:

PLOS Biology: A Test Case for DNA Barcodes to Identify Species


Again, good luck.....

 

[Greenclaws]

Are the facial feathers black, or red, or some combination of both, or no facial stripes?

GW hybrids have red facial feathers. All others have black. If there's red and no black, obviously, since GW have red, and scarlet's have none... it's got GW in it.

If it's got black facial feathers, then it's got some other mix in it.

If it's got NO facial feathers, then the dominant bird was a scarlett.

If it's got red and black, then it's got GW AND SOME OTHER MAC.

Here's a good photo of my Shamrock Mac. You can clearly see the two tone facial feathers.

All red facial with a green and yellow wing band would scream RUBY mac to me.

If there's ANY black in the facial feathers then it's not a Ruby.

Does that help?!

Here's a pic of her. On second thought, I'm guessing she is a catalina/greenwing hybrid. The breeder said she didn't own any Catalinas but since they can look so similar to harlequins, maybe she has a catalina and doesn't know it?

Ruby traits she has:
Really sparse feathers on her face
Lighter reddish orange cheek feathers
Yellow banding on the wings (a 75% GW and 25% BG wouldn't have yellow on its wings right?)

Blue and Gold traits she has:
I THINK there is black feathers mixed in with the red on her facial stripes. So thin its hard to tell
The darker brownish black under the beak on her throat. A ruby wouldn't have that, right?
The top of her head is a discolored darker blackish maroon. I see this often when green/red genes or blue/red genes mix in birds. Perfect example: the dark brown of a hyacinth/greenwing hybrid

Greenwing traits she has:
She's obviously at least 50% greenwing.
Giant beak, deeper red body compared to scarlets. Predominantly green and blue wings. She's also got the build and size of a GW

 

[labell]

She doesn't get to the babies fast enough to band them that's what I think anyway. My nape does not have a band either.