Avery bit my face again... did I do the right thing?

[Dinosrawr]

Avery has a history of displacement biting me on the face. It's happened three times in total - twice out of displacement biting from jealousy, and now just recently from directed anger towards me. I guess we average on one face bite per year... yikes. That's a bad track record [emoji17].

Basically the story goes as such:

We use a colourful sock to "warn" Shiko to get off certain things. We never hit him or throw it at him, but we'll swing it around in a circle. It's not the best method, I know, but after months of trying to station train him and living in a bachelor pad-esque basement suite and not succeeding, it's been the only way to ensure he doesn't land on unsafe or undesirable areas. Anyways, Shiko went on the bed (one area that's a "no" - we have white duvet covers that can't be bleached [emoji33]), so I grabbed the sock and told him to go back to his perch. He did, but Avery was right by me and she hates anything towel-like. She was massively unimpressed with me touching said towel-like object and happily hopped onto my shoulder to chomp on my face. Per norm, it was my left cheek. She didn't bite it hard enough to bleed, but she did open the skin for the first time.

Soooo I employed a strategy that has been suggested before to others because anytime I put her away from me, she'll just act up more and more and remain aggressive towards me, no matter how much I stay calm or try to calm her. I towelled her calmly, looked her in the eyes with a displeased face and said, "Don't bite me. It hurts and I don't like it." Then I took her to our walk-in closet, placed her on the floor, left the light on and shut the door after walking away. I left her there for about two minutes and came back to find her very obviously upset about what happened. I honestly just told her that I was unimpressed and that this would be what would happen anytime she bit me unreasonably. After she appeared a bit more calm, I offered my hand to hold her and she stepped up immediately and calmly without any threat to bite. I rewarded her with a treat once we were back in the room and she's been very calm ever since [emoji15].

I normally prefer pretty straight-laced positive reinforcement, but there seems to be some cases where I feel the need to be a bit "old school". I do my best to avoid any bites... but sometimes they do happen. I guess I'm just trying to figure out myself if I like what I did or not [emoji29]. Any input?

 

[Mallory]

Every time I want to be a positive reinforcement-only trainer I have to go back to my over 10 years spent with horses and remind myself that I would have been kicked, bit and flung into the dirt had I naively donned my clicker and never used an aversive method with them. I used a lot of negative punishment (taking away an unpleasant stimulus) with horses, as most trainers do. I also used a lot more positive reinforcement with them than most trainers do. When I got into dog training, then working with wildlife and finally owning parrots, I spent a lot more time using positive reinforcement training.

The revelation that sometimes positive reinforcement isn't enough came when we needed to teach a young Katara (Siberian husky) that the small animals she lived with weren't food or toys. Positive reinforcement was failing and animals' lives would be risked if she didn't get the point. I was ashamed when I used aversives until I reflected on the training later. I used punishment fairly, she quickly understood what I meant and she never tested me or disrespected the other animals afterwards. She was never injured or in distress. She is now so bombproof that we don't even think twice about leaving her with the birds unsupervised - and that's not something I would do if I didn't trust her completely. If we had used positive reinforcement only, she would likely have decided at some point that chasing Koda (or whatever the temptation was) would be more fun than that treat I had and we might have lost one of the birds.

My point is...when I learned about positive reinforcement I thought it was a revelation and completely wiped out "old school" training. It doesn't. Wild animals tend not to respond as well to aversives as domestic animals (mainly dogs and horses) but there is still a time and place. A punishment can be as mild as turning your back on a dog when it is misbehaving - you are taking away the attention he craves, punishing by removing a positive reinforcement. It can be a lot stronger than that. If you can use punishment without instilling fear in the animal or damaging your relationship, and the animal learns something it could not have easily learned from positive reinforcement, I think there is no harm.

In your case, I think the results speak for themselves. If your bird had panicked in the towel or been visibly traumatized by the incident that's another story, but in your case you firmly made your point and the bird learned something. There was no physical pain caused, just restraint and then a time out. I don't want to encourage anyone to be physical or "rough" with their birds, and I certainly think positive reinforcement is the better choice in most cases. Our birds can also do some damage to us and sometimes, to make our households safe, and on a very individual basis, punishment can be the better choice. I have held Greenleaf's beak before when she has gotten too rough and while I usually ignored her bites and let her learn they were fruitless without punishment, the fact remains she can do a lot more damage to me with her beak than I can do by gently restraining it! It's a touchy subject I have a lot of feelings about, hopefully being honest here does not get me in trouble.

This is the last thing I'll add. Learning, just natural learning, isn't always by positive reinforcement. We learn not to touch a hot stove because it hurts. Many of us learned not to misbehave because time-outs were miserable. Parrots (animals) in the wild learn from both good and bad experiences, and I think in our households they learn the same way. It's up to us to try to prevent negative experiences and to be fair and clear when they are absolutely necessary.

 

[Dinosrawr]

Thanks Mallory, that's really a great way to put it. I think there's a lot of stress as an educated animal owner to do everything perfect, if not close to perfect. So when things go poorly sometimes I become a little too hard on myself - you're your own worst enemy I suppose. Plus it can be hard to admit your "failures" sometimes, but that's how we learn!

I appreciate the awesome response [emoji4]

 

[MonicaMc]

Sounds like Avery needs to learn that towels and towel like things are *good* items.



It's not a route I would have taken.

 

[Dinosrawr]

She used to associate them with good, and it's not that she sees every towel as bad per se, but rather any small towel in someone's hand as a mean to be controlled. Towels and fabrics also seem to put her into a pretty hormonal state, too, and she has a tendency to displacement bite fabrics to show displeasure as well.

I have tried to train her to accept towels, and had succeeded in the beginning year. But once she was hormonal and I couldn't handle her without being bitten (if I picked her up with a perch even though she was perched trained, she'd still go for my hand at times) I felt I had to towel her otherwise she'd try and attack me or my boyfriend relentlessly. It seems to be residual from that from what I gather. After a bath I can towel her and she's fine in it, but if I towel her anywhere near her cage she's very aggressive to me unless I try to talk her down... even then she can still try her hardest to inflict damage.

I don't know if I'll do it again, but I did want to see what would happen if I tried. The shock value seemed to displace the aggression she had, which is a result I wanted. But like I mentioned, it's not exactly something I felt 100% comfortable doing. How would you have handled it, Monica? I'd love to know [emoji4]

 

[MonicaMc]

Pretty much get the bird off of me, then try and figure out where I went wrong! If the bird kept coming at me, that might require putting the bird in the cage and starting from square one! Or at least taking a step back!


Ya, birds can be frustrating at times! But then, sometimes that's the fun of it! Trying to figure out new ways to get desirable behavior!




I'm not sure how exactly, but I'll be getting the chance rather soon to be working with some larger parrots, and one in particular that I'm interested in working with is a galah that has gone slightly "neurotic". As in, she freaks out at the slightest thing (a shadow, someone walking by a window, touching her cage) and goes into a bit of a scared tantrum. I don't know when I'll be able to actually work with them in a training situation, though, since I'll be taking care of them. That in itself would be a training situation for me!

 

[Anansi]

Hey, Chantal. I definitely agree with the timeout aspect. When a bird takes a shot at you like that, they must be made to understand that response is not acceptable.

If the bite was a one and done type deal, I'd not have used the towel. I'd simply have placed her in her cage for a timeout of maybe 10 minutes. (Or in that walk-in closet, in your case.)

If, however, she was repeatedly striking at you, then the use of a towel would definitely have been warranted... IMO. Both for your safety and hers.

In either case, as Monica said, I'd try to figure out what triggered the bite.

What I definitely would change, though, is the use of that colorful sock. Only because using it in that manner likely puts both birds into fight or flight mode and makes the likelihood of a bite more likely. It may even have precipitated this bite by Avery.

For the record, btw, I think you're an exceptional parront to Avery and Shiko, both. So I second your thought not to be too hard on yourself.

And Monica, please keep us updated on this bird you're supposed to be working with. Is it a rehab situation? A foster?

 

[Dinosrawr]

Thanks Monica! Yes, I did get her off me as soon as possible, but in the past putting her in her cage or anywhere in my current place doesn't calm her down for awhile. Because of the way my place is set up, the birds do essentially have claim to everything and thus the entire space is "theirs". I have to definitely try and figure out where I can put her where she won't still think aggression is the appropriate response. I know the more calm I am, the better she is to react, but still doesn't necessarily prevent future bites (which is what I want to accomplish). And really, what I'd prefer is figuring out a way for her to show her aggression without feeling the need to actually take it out on me. And please let us know more about what might happen with the training! I'd love to hear how you progress and what kind of methods you work through.

Thanks Stephen, I appreciate your comment. I think what I might do is try and figure out a way to train him to the word "off". I think once he makes that association, I can reward him for flying off of something and onto something appropriate. Then the sock won't be required anymore and it will be a positive "trick" of sorts.

This is why I love the forum - it helps you think through your problems with different perspectives and can definitely help you progress to become a better person for your birds. Thanks everyone [emoji4]

 

[MonicaMc]

And Monica, please keep us updated on this bird you're supposed to be working with. Is it a rehab situation? A foster?

Technically, neither. I'll be helping to care for personal birds, rescue/rehome birds, and some that may fall under the category of 'permanent residents'. Birds that would not do well in a pet situation, but may do great in a "retirement" kind of situation.

I don't know if this galah is a personal bird, a rescue or a rehome. What I do know is that she is a trained educational bird and a while ago, something set her off. She can no longer be used for educational outings due to her sudden, frantic behavior. She also tends to freak the other birds out when she freaks out herself, which sends everyone into a tizzy.


I probably should have worded my phrase better. I'll be working with larger parrots, as in, I will be caring for them. However, I don't know how much, let alone how often, or when, I may be able to train with any of them.

I do have some ideas for this galah, but it's hard to say if these ideas would be beneficial, or harmful, for her. On one hand, these ideas would be beneficial for her. On the other, it could potentially result in more harm to herself... so the ideas may not even work!

Thanks Monica! Yes, I did get her off me as soon as possible, but in the past putting her in her cage or anywhere in my current place doesn't calm her down for awhile. Because of the way my place is set up, the birds do essentially have claim to everything and thus the entire space is "theirs". I have to definitely try and figure out where I can put her where she won't still think aggression is the appropriate response. I know the more calm I am, the better she is to react, but still doesn't necessarily prevent future bites (which is what I want to accomplish). And really, what I'd prefer is figuring out a way for her to show her aggression without feeling the need to actually take it out on me. And please let us know more about what might happen with the training! I'd love to hear how you progress and what kind of methods you work through.

My next thoughts is distraction.... is there something that she likes that you can distract her with? Trying to avoid rewarding the behavior, but rather redirecting the behavior before it can occur to something more positive, and rewarding that?


Can you go over your method of trying to station train Shiko?

Have you tried target training Shiko? I don't mean just teaching him to target to a stick... but target as in "Perch" - and he'll fly to a specific perch, or "Cage", and he'll fly to cage, or "Chair" and he'll go to the chair.


I can understand why Avery has an aversion to towels. Can you possibly explain how you towel trained her before her towel aggressiveness?

Can you also explain what you tried to do after the towel aggressiveness?



As far as working with other birds, I'm looking forward to it! I hope I'm not shoved head first into interacting with the birds, since my primary job would be cleaning up after them and feeding them. I know that I will be required to handle the birds, if not by hand, then by a dowel to move them from location to location... just it would be nice to observe them first and get to know them before trying to physically interact with them.

The owner/caretaker has a lot more hands on experience with training and her expertise is in the biggins, where-as I'm more experienced with the littles. (she has big macaws, so her dream bird is a tiny little budgie that she can love on and cuddle with! ) I feel we could both immensely learn from each other!