At what point would YOU 'give up' on a bird?

[Kiwibird]

I was on another forum where there seems to be a view that *some* birds are lost causes and at some point you should just make sure they have a clean cage, toys and nutritious food because they will never ever ever be a companion animal. This is not the first time I've heard the sentiment of eventually giving up on a difficult individual (and why I really like this forum, because that attitude doesn't seem so prevalent around here).

So, hypothetically lets say you bring home a rescue who is just a hyper aggressive, difficult bird who does not respond quickly enough to training or makes very slow progress and doesn't seem interested in you at all. At what point would you say "let's just put this bird on the maintenance plan and let him/her be"? A few months, a year, or you wouldn't do that and would work with the bird as long as it takes?

Since most of you know about Kiwi and that he certainly didn't come the way he is now here's part of my response to the idea some birds will just never learn to love again:

I believe firmly that every creature responds to love and kindness and every creature avoids pain and suffering. Parrots are social beings by nature, and as deep down as it may be buried, every parrot has a desire to be included in his or her flock. It's up to us to foster that natural tendency (even though that may be very difficult in some individuals). Perhaps it seems "stupid" of me to some because he REALLY didn't like me for the first couple years and consistently bit the crap out of me, but I've always made it my mission to show him I was not giving up on him via daily interaction whether he really wanted to or not (especially in the beginning). I think perhaps the issue is that most people go about it with the selfish desire to make a friend for themselves RATHER than entering with the unselfish desire to be the friend to a creature who has none. Maybe thats because I grew up without any friends and not much of anything from my family emotionally so I'm familiar with the feeling of wishing just one person would have put in the effort to not write me off as a lost cause when I was really struggling in life. I've never found Kiwi to be that much different and will continue working with him to improve our relationship and bond every day

 

[chris-md]

Now you know my knowledge base is very limited. But what about trying to deal with former breeder birds? I've always been under the impression that when a bird was used for breeding it will never make a good companion pet. Other than that, the philosophy I find here of no one is a lost cause makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Kiwibird]

Now you know my knowledge base is very limited. But what about trying to deal with former breeder birds? I've always been under the impression that when a bird was used for breeding it will never make a good companion pet. Other than that, the philosophy I find here of no one is a lost cause makes perfect sense to me.

I have not personally dealt with breeder, but from my understanding they *can* be worked with. It's just extremely difficult and likely not a job for anyone but the most advanced/knowledgeable/patient bird people. I bet someone like Birdman or Henpecked could rehab a x-breeder, but I think most people (including myself) would have real problems with one. But I have heard a few "stories" of x-breeders rescued by inexperienced owners who didn't know enough about birds to "know better" who ended up having little issue adjusting to being a pet. Likely birds who were pets before they became breeders and reverted back to something they already knew.

 

[Tangie]

I feel that a person should never really give up, and that almost all birds, eventually, will respond positively. I feel that most people who give up are the ones who want to transform a bird into an individual that the people imagined them to be. It is extremely frustrating when any rescue bird takes a long time for any positive steps, no matter how tiny they may be, but I feel they should never be given up on.

Kiko had severe trauma in the past, and I have had him for just over two years. At first, I was excited to train and socialize him to benefit me in a way(so I could pet him and socialize with him like I saw everyone else doing.) But I realized quickly that I should not push on anything, just spend time with him, so he would take positive steps in the direction by his own accord, to benefit him.

I think it depends on how people look at it though. I gave up on forming Kiko to be a companion animal that I thought he should be, because it wasn't working out. So in that perspective I feel that people should give up on that idea, and just focus on socializing with them on the level that they are comfortable with.

 

[Mariar]

When I took doolie from his situation,he was cage bound, aggressive, and unhandleable. He bit me all the time and attacked anyone who smelled like cigarettes and booze. I never gave up on him..never. And I never wanted to either, no matter how frustrated I got. He never was a cuddly bird, but in the end he was a happy bird who knew how to love in his own way...man I miss him.

 

[Birdman666]

When you're as pigheaded as I am, you don't give up all that easily...

There are different levels of companion parrot. Some birds will never be snuggle touch me all over birds...

But they can be trained to step up without biting. And they can reach the point of basic interaction.

Sally was going to be put to sleep... she was too far gone to even be a breeder bird, because she even attacked other birds...

(YEAH, RIGHT!)

Sally was a five hour a job for about two months doing the basics. Another two months, doing the advanced training. She's been one of my best birds for the 12+ years I've had her since... She's uber bonded. She's my flock leader. She's even recalled and free flight trained. FROM A BIRD THAT SAT IN A CAGE UN-HANDLEABLE FOR TWO YEARS... BITING WITH INTENT TO MAIM! (Hit a bird and that is what you will get!)

And I dragged her out of her cage kicking and screaming for the first two weeks because there was no way in hell you could get her out of there any other way. (Opening the cage door was a declaration of war at first!!!)

And yeah, I was told it was the wrong thing to do. (But it wasn't!)

It's not for the faint hearted. And you've got to be willing to butt heads with them, because they can be buttheads...

Most people either don't know what they are doing, or give up too easily. (Or both.)

If you leave them to fester, they will continue to fester. The bird will almost NEVER improve on it's own. The only way to overcome a fear is to face it. When that fear is "humans" until they get handled regularly, they won't be handled EVER! And getting them from point A to point B involves taking several bites.

I think that's just pretty much gospel. So you fight through it the first few times, and then it starts to improve. Then you start the training exercises, and it improves more. Somewhere along the line, the natural bonding process kicks in.... and there you go. (It sounds easy, but it itsn't. It's a battle at first. You don't get this until you win that battle.)

They don't improve until you expand their comfort zone. (One way or another.) And I've heard all the nonsense about "betraying their trust." Do it right, you establish trust, because they thought you were going to eat them, and instead, you were nice to them, and... it... was... actually... curiously... pleasant...

And the next time it gets a tad easier.

And the time after that it gets easier still.

Then you reach the point where you don't need the towel. You just set it down next to the cage, and the bird steps up for you.

AGAIN, THIS IS A LAST RESORT TYPE OF TRAINING FOR BIRDS THAT DON'T RESPOND TO ANYTHING ELSE. IT'S NOT THE FIRST THING YOU TRY. IT'S FOR THE ONES THAT FESTER...

 

[Birdman666]

Now you know my knowledge base is very limited. But what about trying to deal with former breeder birds? I've always been under the impression that when a bird was used for breeding it will never make a good companion pet. Other than that, the philosophy I find here of no one is a lost cause makes perfect sense to me.

That is true in terms of snuggle/interaction factor.

They can be tamed down, they probably won't be that exceptional pet quality. A few actually do surprise you now and again, but you don't get one with that in mind. It's not fair to the bird.

 

[Birdman666]

But I have heard a few "stories" of x-breeders rescued by inexperienced owners who didn't know enough about birds to "know better" who ended up having little issue adjusting to being a pet. Likely birds who were pets before they became breeders and reverted back to something they already knew.

Exactly.

They transfer that bond from person, to another bird, and then back to person. They generally tend to be very one person birds, though.

 

[Christinenc2000]

BB came from a bad situation. Friends kept telling me he would / will never be the type of Bird that would just cuddle. I accepted what he would give and he and I have learned together. Yup We did the buddy system. 1/2 the time I call him Buddy .
I was so amazed by him I would accept what he gave . Never expecting any more . Last night while I refilled his bowls in his cage he climbed around the outside like he normally does. Making sure i do things correct. <- Buddy system. When I got to the water dish I stopped waiting for him to bluff like he normally does. Instead he leaned his head back until he was resting on my chest but still holding onto the cage. He turned his head to the side and I stood there for 10 minutes scratching him. He has let me scratch him before and will step up but never leaned on me. My BF had tears in his eyes watching. This is a man that is NOT a bird person . Until last night

I have had him one year in Oct

Of course thru the whole year we have had a great support group because of this Forum.

Give up ? NO NEVER

 

[Dinosrawr]

I think that "giving up" is a really sleazy way of saying, "I don't want to put the effort in anymore because *I'M* not the one benefiting from this relationship". There are always some animals, especially people, that may be beyond saving from a particular point of view. But I really think that depends on your definition of "saved". If your bird is happy in its own way, if it thrives in its environment, and if it has a full belly, lots of toys, and positive interactions, I don't see how anyone is losing.

Not all birds are "companion" birds in the way people like to imagine them. Snuggling isn't everyone's thing (I can't snuggle my mom if she's watching a movie, she gets mad, hahaha!). I honestly think people just get too selfish and can't stand to see an animal happy if it's not happy giving them the physical interaction they demand. It's a normal response considering that we've been taught that love is shown through certain levels of intimacy, but it's a very one sided approach.

 

[Mimsy01]

I think there is a difference between giving up-as in getting rid of, putting to sleep, releasing ect, and giving the animal and you some space.

I've had a lot of rescue animals over the years and some can take a very long time to gain trust and friendship with. I had a couple of ferret/polecat hybrids that were holy terrors. Latch on and hold on and really came after us. Probably the closest to "lost cause" animal. But we still gave them a clean cage, good food and time out of the cage and worked with them, sometimes a lot and sometimes a little. It was years before they really started showing friendly interest in us, but they did eventually. Some people don't really want to deal with that and I understand. However, I don't see it as a huge deal. Don't take it personally and just take it slow on their time and your own. Be accepting that they may not be that pet that melts at your touch and don't be resentful of that fact. Enjoy what you get out of each individual.

 

[MyFlock]

I had an anti- social GCC I never gave up on. I say had because he has made major progress, no longer bites and can be somewhat cuddly now but He's not like those GCCs you always see at Petco trying to be cute and laying down and all of that. He still would rather not be with people as his ultimate choice. Someone else probably would have rehomed him by now but I'm in it for the long haul with all my birds, for better or worse. I made the decision to get them and now I need to take responsibility for them and their well being. Too many people give up on animals when it's no longer convienant for them or when they don't fit fit their ideal. I can understand legitimate reasons for rehoming a pet such as illness, death or homelessness, domestic violence situations etc.

 

[Kyoto]

My cockatiel Joey had three homes.

In his first home, he spent 6 years in a cage that was even too small for a budgie, where he was never let out or given toys. They used to yell at him for screaming, and would smack his cage.

His next owner got him and had to teach him how to fly, due to his muscles atrophy... She over time stick trained him, but he was terrified of hands. He had a weird plucking behaviour that he would use his claws and pull feathers out of his left cheek.

When my ex and I went to see him and talk about adopting him (his rescuer was moving out of province and felt she couldn't give him the care he needed), I fell in love.

Over the time we had him, he landed on my hands about 6 times in total. He was always a well behaved, loving boy. Although I could never pet him or scratch his head, he never bit me. He would let me rub my face all over him and give him kisses. He truly loved me and would sing songs and dance. He became my buddy, and he would call for me whenever he lost sight of me.

When I left my relationship, my ex would not give him or any of the other birds up to me. I regret not fighting it, but I also didn't want to break up the flock as they were all bonded to each other.

I miss my Jo Jo to this day. He was such a wonderful friend to me. I have tried to contact my ex on numerous occasions to ask about him and the other birds, but never hear back.

That said, any bird can come around with enough love.

 

[RavensGryf]

I've had a lot of rescue animals over the years and some can take a very long time to gain trust and friendship with. I had a couple of ferret/polecat hybrids that were holy terrors. Latch on and hold on and really came after us. Probably the closest to "lost cause" animal. But we still gave them a clean cage, good food and time out of the cage and worked with them, sometimes a lot and sometimes a little. It was years before they really started showing friendly interest in us, but they did eventually. Some people don't really want to deal with that and I understand. However, I don't see it as a huge deal. Don't take it personally and just take it slow on their time and your own. Be accepting that they may not be that pet that melts at your touch and don't be resentful of that fact. Enjoy what you get out of each individual.

Wow, sounds pretty scary with a mammal with sharp teeth! Are they domesticated or considered exotics? Even though it's not birds, got to give you credit. Same concept, and you actually got them to be a little friendly after years of dedication.

 

[Mimsy01]

Wow, sounds pretty scary with a mammal with sharp teeth! Are they domesticated or considered exotics? Even though it's not birds, got to give you credit. Same concept, and you actually got them to be a little friendly after years of dedication.

Ferrets are domestic and European polecats are wild. They can breed and have viable offspring and some people do it under misguided belief of making a ferret healthier/prettier or whatever. Kind of like people who breed wolves and dogs. I don't blame the animals, however I do not think taking a domestic animal and breeding it with a wild animal is a good plan. It makes a very unpredictable pet. `

LOL on the scary though, I don't think it's any more scary than some of the larger parrots, those beaks are intimidating! I think any animal can have a good life with an owner. I think we humans get high expectations of what the relationship should be. If we just relax and go slow and don't expect them to be a certain way we will get joy out of whatever good interactions come our way. Just reading this thread shows that the biggest joys seem to be from small happy things that happen with our feathered or furred friends.

 

[SilverSage]

Bird needs a flock. If it truly comes to the point that you do not feel that humans can provide that flock, then the bird needs to go into a sanctuary situation where he can be part of a flock of other birds. I believe every bird can learn to coexist with humans, but that some birds have been so badly abused they may be happier with other birds instead. I don't think that should be seen as giving up on. Do I think I bird should ever be left in a cage alone with toys and a good diet? No way. Either be the flock or provide the flock.

As for breeders, they CAN be GREAT companions. Most breeders were not hand raised and have no basis of trust for humans. It simply takes more work, more time, and they often tend to be one person birds and tend not to take as kindly to new faces or places. Oh, and it takes longer to teach them to step up. Lol, they have never really had to do it quite like that before so it is a process of teaching them "lift the foot, put the foot on me. Shift your weight, lift the other foot, put it on me. Now don't freak out when the perch starts to walk away." But they are just as smart and trainable, often much smarter because usually no one interrupted their natural mental development, force weaned them, clipped them too early, or did any of the other things impatient breeders tend to do with baby birds they want to sell as pets.

 

[Solo]

European polecats are quite common. They run fairly loose in their environments. Kind of like loose cats you see around the neighborhood in the states (at least my state). Though they are exceptional at maintaining a low pest population.

I believe there are some scenarios where the personalities don't mesh in a relationship. It's like having a friend or a spouse. There are some people you just can't stand and I think birds have that same experience. Animals have always loved me and I've never met one that's made me think they can't be rehabilitated. If I thought the animal would be truly happier with someone else I would rehome with strict standards, anything else would be selfish on my part. However, I would do all I could and extinguish every option before doing so.

 

[Kiwibird]

I think that "giving up" is a really sleazy way of saying, "I don't want to put the effort in anymore because *I'M* not the one benefiting from this relationship". There are always some animals, especially people, that may be beyond saving from a particular point of view. But I really think that depends on your definition of "saved". If your bird is happy in its own way, if it thrives in its environment, and if it has a full belly, lots of toys, and positive interactions, I don't see how anyone is losing.

Not all birds are "companion" birds in the way people like to imagine them. Snuggling isn't everyone's thing (I can't snuggle my mom if she's watching a movie, she gets mad, hahaha!). I honestly think people just get too selfish and can't stand to see an animal happy if it's not happy giving them the physical interaction they demand. It's a normal response considering that we've been taught that love is shown through certain levels of intimacy, but it's a very one sided approach.

I agree with this to a point. I think that birds should be able to step up and interact on a basic level without issue. If for nothing else, because there WILL be times you need to handle your bird and you don't want that to be a traumatic situation of toweling and restraining every time. Earning enough trust to step up IMO isn't asking to much of an owner to do.

As for being a cuddly bird, that should be up to the bird. Kiwi will never be the one who rolls over in my lap to be petted of his own desire, but he's still social in other ways (likes to play with me with his toys). I just don't agree with the POV that "oh the bird is difficult, he/she must not like me, I'm just going to just give up on any form of trust-building or training and leave him/her to sit in the cage because he/she *appears* to be "ok" with that".

 

[Kiwibird]

Bird needs a flock. If it truly comes to the point that you do not feel that humans can provide that flock, then the bird needs to go into a sanctuary situation where he can be part of a flock of other birds. I believe every bird can learn to coexist with humans, but that some birds have been so badly abused they may be happier with other birds instead. I don't think that should be seen as giving up on. Do I think I bird should ever be left in a cage alone with toys and a good diet? No way. Either be the flock or provide the flock.

Exactly. I don't think sending a bird to live in a sanctuary with other birds is giving up at all. Thats doing whats best for the individual. But parrots are social beings and it makes me sad when people have problems, assume the bird "hates" them and then gives up on any hope of ANY improvement ever from the bird and cuts the bird off from interaction because the bird isn't living up to their expectations.