Another vet visit and a Jasper update

[katie_fleming]

Hey guys

Apologies for not giving you all an update on Jasper lately. Work has been keeping me busy and I haven't had time to get back on here.

Ok, so here's what's been going on. I monitored Jasper's wound in his mouth and it looked ok. I emailed my vet and actually sent her the link to my post on the forum so she could have the whole story. She's amazing, read the whole thing, and called/emailed me the following day. I decided to wait until Saturday (only 2 days away from that point) to bring him in since everything seemed ok.

So, on Saturday he had his follow-up appointment from the yeast infection he developed 2 weeks ago. They did another crop wash (I'm beginning to worry about all of these crop washes happening every 2 weeks) and examined his wound.

She said his wound is healing very well and there's no signs of infection on either puncture. Thank goodness.

Now, the results of the crop wash were disheartening. His yeast infection is gone but she said he has another bacterial infection. She wants me to keep him on the anti-fungal another 2 weeks just to be sure (in case any DID happen to get in his wound and we're just not seeing it - he did have some white balls in his mouth when I wrote her).

I also found out the 24/7 vet that I called twice now does NOT see parrots. There's a vet school about 45 min away from here that would, but that's it.

I decided to get them to send the bacteria away so they could identify exactly what it is. Instead of throwing him back on the broad spectrum I think it's important now to see which one it is, and make sure that particular broad spectrum will cover it. He had a bacterial infection, then yeast infection (apparently normal after having that), but now another bacterial infection. It just doesn't make sense.

I will hopefully find out Thurs/Fri which bacteria then I can pick up another antibiotic for him. He's also on pro-biotics now.

She said she was worried about him possibly having PDD and wanted to do 3 blood tests, 12 hours apart. I opted out of this, because she said it's common in birds from Quebec. He's not from Quebec, he was bred in Winnipeg area. Also, he hasn't been around other birds at all. He's in my apartment all the time unless I bring him to the park in his birdie bag. I also called my breeder when I got home and she said she's never had a case of PDD and is skeptical.

So that's where we're at now. I'm pretty worried and frustrated. He seems perfectly normal. Happy, talkative, energetic, and mostly eating well (my parents visited on the weekend and I think it might have disrupted his routine so he didn't eat much), but otherwise perfectly normal.

Have any of you heard of recurring bacterial infections in the crop? It just doesn't make sense what's going on. My bank account is also hurting. I've spent over $1,000 in vet visits now in the past month. I just wish he'd get better.

I've also added the apple cider vinegar back into his water.

Thanks for reading

 

[labell]

Frankly I would have had the PDD testing done because sadly that is what I have suspected all along. He does not need to be around other parrots to get it and in fact in most cases it is passed from the parents to the babies. I hope I am wrong.

Unless your breeder has had her birds tested (more than once) and has a closed aviary her pairs could be carriers. In fact some birds have gone years without showing symptoms and yet be carriers of the disease.

I would urge you to talk to Stephen about this as it is what took poor Bixby.

 

[katie_fleming]

This is my breeder's website: Canadian Bird Breeders

She told me she will sometimes test babies for peace of mind, but both of her breeding pairs are negative for [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Polyoma, Pachecos, Psitticosis and PBFD.
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[labell]

This is my breeder's website: Canadian Bird Breeders

She told me she will sometimes test babies for peace of mind, but both of her breeding pairs are negative for [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Polyoma, Pachecos, Psitticosis and PBFD.
[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

Has she tested for PDD? Being negative for those diseases is great but you can't look at a bird and tell that it is a carrier unless the test is done. Eclectus are sadly one of the parrots that are highly susceptible to PDD.

Pachecos disease is really pretty rare any more it was rampant in imported conures in the 70s but since importation was banned the cases have dropped significantly.

 

[katie_fleming]

Not sure if she's tested but she said she's never had a case of PDD.

 

[Doublete]

I think she could have carriers of the disease that never exhibit the signs... Sadly.

 

[katie_fleming]

I will find out this week what the bacteria is then I'll go from there... she is a very reputable breeder and I haven't read about any problems so I'm skeptical about the PDD to be honest.

She asked me if I had purchased toys from him from any stores that sold birds and I said no, but then I remembered the store in Montreal I have purchased from (I basically do all my shopping from one store in TO that doesn't sell birds).

Is this something that is airborne?

I'm wondering if I should have a crop wash somewhere else to confirm but I'll wait for now until the results of this test.

 

[labell]

Not sure if she's tested but she said she's never had a case of PDD.

Here is the issue I have with her making that statement unless her birds have been tested she has no way of knowing if they are carriers. Babies she has sold in the past could have died and not been tested and some vets will pass it off as reoccurring infections leading owners to believe it was something they did wrong. Many people after the death of a bird are too upset to have a necropsy done and wouldn't know that it was actually PDD that killed their bird.

A far more sinister explanation is the breeder is lying...can and does happen all the time. If her birds tested positive as carriers she would no longer be able to breed them as they would remain carriers the rest of their lives a lot of breeders don't want to split up and retire producing pairs. When PDD was first seen it was mostly in Macaws, breeders thought it was passed from the parents feeding the babies and began pulling the eggs as soon as they were laid and incubating them. Unfortunately it was passed through the egg to the developing embryo and the babies would still die. Not all babies got it and died but they did become carriers like their parents.

 

[labell]

Most of the deadly avian diseases are airborne, while PDD can be, it is most often passed from the parents. Dishonest breeders know that avian disease is airborne and typically will use that as an escape of culpability (such as asking did you buy toys from any place that has birds). This is the very reason it is so hard to hold breeders accountable. While IMHO they should be holding themselves to the highest standard and never breeding pairs that have not been tested for EVERYTHING.

 

[labell]

Something to think about is what if Stephen had not been so adamant about finding the cause of Bixby's death. He had many reoccurring infections many rounds of antibiotics. Many times in cases like this the person is just beat down..emotionally and financially. At which point it is easier to think maybe it was just a sickly bird..something genetic. Especially because it can take so long for the disease to progress from un-wellness, to obvious sickness to death. Sadly it is also a lot of time for a breeder to pass blame on the new owners rather than look into the health of their breeding pairs.

 

[RavensGryf]

Frankly I would have had the PDD testing done because sadly that is what I have suspected all along. He does not need to be around other parrots to get it and in fact in most cases it is passed from the parents to the babies. I hope I am wrong.

Unless your breeder has had her birds tested (more than once) and has a closed aviary her pairs could be carriers. In fact some birds have gone years without showing symptoms and yet be carriers of the disease.

I would urge you to talk to Stephen about this as it is what took poor Bixby.

I am so sorry to say this Katie, and I hope that we are ALL WRONG, but I agree with Laura in my suspicions. She is correct about the route of transmission. I too, have had this happen before with a Pionus, hence my paranoia these days with viral diseases. If only PDD existed in one isolated part of the world! It is everywhere in every country, province, city, and state, both in the wild and in captivity .

Reality is, PDD is a fairly common disease. The reality is, if a breeder doesn't run what they call a "closed aviary", it is always a risk.

I am hoping the best for you and Jasper... Katie, all these infections are secondary I believe. What is the root of the problem here? I hope you can get some concrete answers from someone qualified soon. Good luck!

 

[RavensGryf]

On this breeder's website it says they occasionally take in unwanted parrots to rehome. Although her heart is in the right place, THAT right there is a risk of introducing disease into the home and aviary. Quarantine just isn't enough sometimes. PDD can sometimes show up many months later in a beautiful looking bird, as it did in the case with Stephen's bird and my bird.

 

[katie_fleming]

Jasper has been with me 10 months now...don't you think if he caught it at the breeder's he would have been sick much sooner? I don't know the growth period.

His weight is still good, droppings normal, appetite good, behaviour good. Nothing is 'off' other than the crop washes showing these.

I'm hoping it's just that his immune system got run down and he was susceptible again. I hope the pro-biotics will help. I also started giving him one pellet berry cluster at night now.

My breeder suggested an equal part of garlic, carrot, and two others that I forget right now (all powders) sprinkled on his food once a day. I went to the health food store but can't find the carror or beet powder. No idea where to find this stuff.

Once I get the results of the bacterial infection I'll let you know...

 

[Doublete]

I know it's extremely hard to admit and live with the fact that you may have a sick bird.

But the unfortunate fact is the antibiotics shouldn't wear his system down. He shouldn't be repeatedly coming up with an infection. And the pro biotics are for digestion. Nothing to do with immunity.

I would be looking for the underlying cause of this constant infection.

And yes it can take that long. You've been dealing with nagging infections for months,
Think about a person with HIV. How do they find it? When does it become full blown AIDS. Same type idea here.

 

[Anansi]

Hi, Katie. Sorry I'm only just now responding. I was at work.

At this point, we can't know anything for sure. And neither can your vet or the breeder. But since I went through this earlier in the year, and have now done exhaustive research on the topic, let me relate to you my experience so that you can be aware of the facts regarding PDD and from there make an informed decision.

As both Laura and Julie have pointed out, Bixby also suffered from repeat infections. He would get sick, I'd take him to the vet, they'd notice an elevated white blood cell count which indicates an infection, they'd treat him with antibiotics and his illness would recede. A few weeks later, the whole thing would happen all over again. All in all, I spent an outrageous amount of money vet treating this seemingly unrelated string of illnesses.

Then I had Bixby tested for PDD... despite the fact that he'd never been around any birds until I got Maya, who had already gone through a comprehensive battery of tests. He tested negative. Again. (The test for PDD is notoriously unreliable, as it must be actively shedding in order to be detectable via blood sample.)

The negative result eased my worries... at the time. So I kept taking Bixby in to the vet to treat what was now being considered a very tough and stubborn infection. Well, after round after round of antibiotics, Bixby's health continued to decline. In the latter stages, he started losing some of the dexterity in his toes and would fall from his perch, which prompted me to keep him in his travel cage for the last few weeks of his life.

The whole time, however, I just kept thinking that it couldn't possibly be PDD. He'd had no contact with any other birds, and he'd been with me since he'd finished weaning at 4 months. Bixby was almost 2 at this point! Surely, I'd have seen some symptoms before that, right? (I know just what you're going through at this moment, Katie.)

I then found out that Bixby's hatch-mate, the one I've often and affectionately referred to as Sir Chomps any time that I was posting stories about my visits to Bixby while he was still weaning, was suffering the same exact symptoms... and had lost a similar amount of weight. The vet then hypothesized that both birds might be suffering from a genetically predisposed "failure to thrive". The continuing presence of black on their beaks after their 1st birthdays supported this hypothesis. Perhaps the parents were a bad genetic match and their immune systems had not yet fully bloomed.

Bixby passed in late February of this year. Sir Chomps (his true name was Loki) passed barely a month later. Both a few months shy of their 2nd birthdays.

So I ordered a necropsy for Bixby. The results proved conclusively that he had died due to complications arising from the pervasive presence of PDD throughout both his crop and proventriculus.

So I began my research. And I spoke to two highly regarded avian vets about PDD. And here is what I've since learned.

1) No one knows with a certainty just how transmissible PDD is horizontally (parrot to parrot as opposed to parent to child). This is because PDD actually stems from either of 2 strains of Avian Bornavirus. According to the hypothesis, aside from the presence of one of these two strains of ABV, an as yet unidentified catalyst is also required to take a bird from carrying the ABV strains to exhibiting the full blown clinical symptoms of PDD. (Which explains why 12 year old birds with no exposure to other parrots can suddenly show clinical symptoms.)

2) It is fairly certain that PDD is transmitted vertically (parent to child). One of the pioneering researchers that I spoke to actually told me that it is his belief that nearly all cases of PDD are transmitted vertically. This, of course, has not been proven beyond doubt, but he has over 25 years of experience treating PDD positive birds.

3) There are 9 known strains of ABV. Only two can develop into PDD. Yet, when testing for PDD (which is actually a test for ABV, btw), any of those 9 strains, if shedding at the time, can trigger a positive result for ABV. There is currently no way to distinguish between the various strains via bloodtest. The long and short? Even a positive ABV test doesn't mean that your bird will develop PDD. And even a negative result doesn't guarantee that your bird won't develop PDD.

4) So what to do? Katie, my suggestion to you would be to have an x-ray taken of Jasper. If he does have PDD, signs of it would show in the proventriculus region (the stomach between the crop and the gizzard) particularly. The proventriculus would dilate well beyond its usual size, indicating the possible presence of PDD.

If this is the finding on the x-ray, the next step might be to take the bloodtest for ABV. Of course, a more certain procedure would be a biopsy of the crop, but that's surgical. (The crop is the site 2nd most likely to give away the presence of PDD, as most necropsies that indicate signs of PDD in the proventriculus also show signs in the crop. Vets used to biopsy the proventriculus, but it was found that the crop biopsy was almost as reliable and healed with far better success.

Now here is the not-quite-as-gloomy side to all of this. While PDD is more difficult to pin down with any degree of certainty than others, it is not necessarily an immediate death sentence. If caught early enough, it's possible to slow its progress with the use of anti-inflammatory drugs as well as the occasional use of antibiotics to stave off any secondary infections that might come along. As long as this maintenance regimen is adhered to, and strict attention is paid to hygiene via cage cleaning and such, it's possible for a PDD positive bird to live quite a few years. One of the vets actually told me of a macaw he had been treating for 12 years and counting! He said the bird was lively and robust as of her last vet appointment.

Now, the disease had already compromised Bixby's immune system. But perhaps if I'd known all of this earlier...

Katie, I pray Jasper is not PDD positive. But if he is, the sooner you know the better. If you have any questions at all, feel free to post here or pm me. Whichever your preference.

 

[katie_fleming]

I appreciate everyone's posts, thank you.

Anansi, thank you for your post as well. Jasper actually had an xray a month ago, two of them. Everything was normal.

I was talking with my Dad last night (he's a microbiologist) and we got talking about the first infection. He was saying it was *possible* the yeast infection masked the original bacterial infection and that it might not have been completely gone.

I realized I had paid for a bacterial culture at his first appointment but they never gave me the results (which bacteria). I have paid for a second culture to be done this week (that's what I'm waiting on). I have asked for them to tell me what the bacteria was the first time to see if it's the same now. He said if it's the same it would show a strong indication that it might not have gone away.

 

[Anansi]

I'm so glad to hear his x-rays were normal, Katie! While this doesn't completely rule out PDD, I think it does knock it down a few notches as a possibility.

When your father says the yeast infection might have "masked" the original bacterial infection, does he mean that the vet saw that there was a yeast infection and didn't bother to check any further since she thought she'd already found the culprit? Or does he mean that the actual physical presence of the yeast infection somehow hid the usual indicators that a bacterial infection was also present?

And how is Jasper doing, today? Any improvement?

 

[katie_fleming]

Hi Anansi,

My dad said the vet would have done a wet mount, saw lots of yeast cells, and maybe didn't do a long examination on the wet mount. He said you can see debris and overlook it and just see yeast.

Another thing to note is it was a different vet who did this, my regular vet was not working that day. I don't want to say he didn't do a good job, but from what my dad told me it *could* be a possibility it was overlooked.

 

[camo]

Lots of great advice in this post, and all with Jaspers best interest at heart.

Katie, I really hope you are able to get to the bottom of this soon, it's good you have your father to offer you advice. Much as it would be disappointing that the vet may have missed the bacterial infection initially, it does sound like a plausible possibility, and probably the most positive outcome.

My fingers are crossed for you and Jasper!!

Cheers,

Cameron

 

[JerseyWendy]

Katie, knowing how much confidence you have in your avian vet, and how much corresponding you do with her, I’m only assuming here that you’ve had her read this particular thread perhaps, too?

Even though Jasper’s X-rays looked perfectly normal that STILL does not give you certainty he doesn’t have PDD. You are aware of this I hope.

Of course, a more certain procedure would be a biopsy of the crop, but that's surgical. (The crop is the site 2nd most likely to give away the presence of PDD, as most necropsies that indicate signs of PDD in the proventriculus also show signs in the crop. Vets used to biopsy the proventriculus, but it was found that the crop biopsy was almost as reliable and healed with far better success.

PDD is never something people want to hear. It's not something they want to have to deal with. But being in denial over it certainly doesn't help anyone.