Amount of pellets

[sparrow]

Hi there! I was hoping to find a bit of guidance here. My situation is different than most of you I think, as I'm actually a zookeeper. For the past few months I've been caring for a 38 year old female double yellow headed Amazon. It has come to the attention of our vet staff that she is underweight, and I've been trying to get some weight on her. She was 420g a few months ago; the vet handled her and found her keel to be very sharp, and would prefer her to be in the 480-490g range. I've got her up to 445ish, but she seems to have plateaued. I'm reevaluating her diet, but for the life of me I can't find anywhere the amount of pellets she should be eating. The thing is, she hates her pellets, and while I have plenty of ideas on how to work with that, I have no idea the amount I should be aiming for. Right now she is being offered 25g of Mazuri pellets (intentionally way over what we've seen her eat, she usually manages to eat 9-13g on average), plus 16g veggies and 11g fruit. She was getting 10g of seeds since they're so fattening and she of course LOVES them, but as of today they are cut from her diet for now, in an effort to combat the fact that she holds out for them and ignores her pellets.

What is perhaps the most challenging about this is that I have very little control over her diet; I can't change the amounts, though I could possibly make some suggestions to the vet staff with some kind of scientific backing. I can't change the brand of pellets, and I can't do anything significant to "doctor" them to make them more palatable; since we have a couple hundred animals, staff would like to avoid the possibility of a single extremely time-consuming diet if they can. I can and have been experimenting with meal times and portions, and can somewhat control what fruits and veggies she gets.

But like I said, I've gotten lots of ideas for getting her to eat the pellets from here and other places, all of this rambling has mostly just been to get the point that I'm seeking some kind of line to be shooting for. Mazuri has no feeding guidelines on their website or bags, and hours of googling has been no help. I'm guessing that's because most people free feed their birds, but since she won't do that, maybe some of you can weigh in on the amount you feed your Amazons of similar size?

Thanks for sitting through this long post.

Editing to add a few pictures of my beautiful girl <3

 

[Doublete]

My girl weighed in at 504 g today she gets fresh foods in the am (about 2 tbl maybe more), a small sweet potato ball (about 1 tbl) with carrot, sw potato,kale, and pumpkin. Then she gets about a tbl spoon or two of roudybush pellets and 3-4 nutriberries.
This along with the odd treat has maintained her weight over the past 4 months that I've had her.

 

[SpotsandSally]

Could you mix her pellets in with fruit? That could get her to eat some, even if accidental.

There's no way you can increase her fresh foods?

 

[Doublete]

My girl eats everything any time of day but maybe offer her least favorite in the am when she should be hungriest?

 

[gracebowen]

What about some bird safe nuts.
I know you said you can't doctor the pellets but I read that putting a little honey and mixing it up helps.

 

[SailBoat]

There are some excellent pellets on the market and some that are very poor. Look for and only buy 'human grade!' Also, target low salt content as well as low sugar content, and no added coloring. Most Amazon owners / caretakers are facing the same problem as you, so welcome to the party. Try crushing the pellets to a smaller overall size. Size and shape does matter, where one Amazon will like a larger pellet size, another will only eat the small pellets.

Others have already stated that increasing fruits and veggies is important.

Over the last 10 years, suppliers of packaged foods to the parrot market have greatly improved the overall quality and variety of their products. This is a result to the market moving away from 'seed' based diets along with an increasing demand from the market to supply a more balance diet specific to the needs of old world and separately new world parrots.

The result is a wide range of offering that allows the owners / caretakers to target diet needs of their parrots. Since, this is an Amazon forum, lets look at just Amazons. Amazons range from near the far southern tip of South America to as far north as Chicago in North America. The available natural diet range is huge and no one formulated diet / pellet could cover that range. The result is package diets that are formulated from seeds, nuts, grains, dried berries and dried fruits found in each region. Some, also add pastas with a wide range of shapes.

There are an increasing number of suppliers that are targeting 'human grade,' low salt and low sugar without added color. This driven by the increasing number of 'human grade' facilities and market place demand.

I am 'currently' using Brown's Tropical Carnival and Scarlett's Mardigras in a 50/50 mix. Separately, I add Harrison Bird Food Pellets, which represents as little as 15% of the daily offering. That offering totals 8 - 10 oz. Our DYA intake varies all over the board as does the individual items that he may target from one day to another. In any given week he will eat nearly everything one day and the next he is picking out very specific items. The Fruits and veggies are always available and vary though the year.

Last year would have been other suppliers and I am guessing that next year will likely be someone else. We adjust based on availability and as part of an on-going search for something better, more specific to our Amazon.

Over the last seven years, I have moved away from 'all pellet dry diet' to a dry diet that more closely targets the dry items that are commonly found in the area that my Amazon was from.

Our DYH Amazon is fully fighted and sits in and around 505 grams.

Steven,

 

[sparrow]

But when you say the pellets are 15%, how much is that and how do you know? I can't find anything saying the actual weight of pellets that is recommended to be feeding. Since she won't free feed, I'm trying to figure out what the target amount of pellets should be so I can work up to it. There are some really amazing ideas for getting her to eat the pellets on here that I'm looking forward to trying, but I don't know the amount that should be the goal. It doesn't sound like most people here feed Mazuri so maybe I won't be able to find out an amount for that specific brand, but I can't even seem to find anything saying how much protein, fat, kcals, etc that a YH Amazon needs so that I can figure the amount of pellets myself. I'm stuck!

 

[JerseyWendy]

What do you mean by 'she doesn't free feed'? Are her portions measured to a 'T'? Does she get fed certain times during the day, and her food is otherwise removed/withheld?

http://www.mazuri.com/product_pdfs/56A8.pdf

 

[sparrow]

She won't free feed on pellets, she'll just ignore them. But of course, she'll eat all the seeds and produce in the world! So with all these ideas I've gotten from you guys on how to get her to eat the pellets, how many should I be trying to get her to eat? Other Mazuri diets, such as primates, have a whole mathematical formula on how to calculate the daily amount based on the monkey's weight, the season, etc., but they have nothing for parrots. You know how on like, dog food bags it tells you to feed however many cups of food if your dog weighs this much, and however many if it weighs this much, and so on? That's the kind of thing I'm trying to figure out.

 

[SpotsandSally]

Could you mix the pellets with some seed? Wet it, and make it a type of mush? She would want to eat the seeds out of it but in the process eat her pellets too.

 

[SailBoat]

Harrison recommends 1-2 tbl for an Amazons of their Adult formulation. However, there is a wide range in body size in the Amazon family with a body weight that range from the mid 300's to near 600 g. and that would far to little at the upper range and a little to much at the lower depending on what else is feed.

How much or how many pellet should be feed to an Amazon is poorly documented and a point of disagreement between Manufacturers, Suppliers, Vets, Authors, Caregivers and Owners. Add to that and more than likely one of the major causes of the disagreement is the variation and quality of the ingridences and how much is provided. Add to that the sugar levels and one can see that a set standard measurement become problematic. Yes, sugar is used to get the parrot to eat the pellets.

The exposure of the keel represents either or both; low body weight and/or low muscle mass commonly as a result of a lack of developed flight muscles.

The body weight targeted by your Vet seems correct for your Amazon. Using body weight as a guide to the health of an Amazon is an important tool. However, that tool needs a history that can present trends. How long has the Zoo had this Amazon and based on the time line, what trend can be seen? Slow trend up/down or rapid trend up/down. A rapid trend should require a full spectrum blood test.

Steven

 

[JerseyWendy]

Since your pretty girl ignores the pellets, please have a look at this thread: (I hope it'll help a little.)

http://www.parrotforums.com/parrot-...7-converting-parrots-healthier-diet-tips.html

 

[SailBoat]

One of the points that you made was that you are not in the position to change this Amazon's diet. You also indicated that you would need source documents and/or accredited individuals to present to your management / Vet. If that is all true, I would recommend that you contact:

Parrot Island Inc. (parrotislandinc.com)
Terry & Shari Beaudoint
952 928 9985
They are current members of AAV and IAABC

This will get you the needed documents, titles, and accredited information needed to present to your Zoo management / Vet.


Steven

 

[henpecked]

Hello and welcome to the forum. She is a nice looking older hen , maybe a trace of magna to her. regardless. Check her liver values (liver issues in older zons) , if she's good then check for worms. I'm not going to get into a pellet war but but find one she'll eat. Then you can switch around to different brands. If her liver is good i'd switch to a sweeter, higher fat pellet,, maybe a breeder kaytee exact natural with about 7% fat. I'd also suggest sprouts, buttered veggies(high fat, high VitA), Peanut butter, but all that will depend on liver values. I'd also make more of an effort towards vitA rich foods. I could go on and on but the vet check is your first step.I've had some of my zons for over forty years and they all have been free fed 100% of the time. It's what you feed not how much.

PS clip those nails and she might move around a bit more.

 

[sparrow]

Unfortunately I'm not able to change the brand, as the zoo buys Mazuri in bulk for our many birds. She's seen by our vet staff regularly and all of her levels are good; aside from being underweight she's in great health. She gets regular beak and nail trims from staff as well, these pictures may be from before whenever her last appointment was.

SailBoat thanks for the explanation, I didn't realize it was something that is debated even amongst experts, so that actually makes me feel a little better. To answer your questions, the zoo has owned her for 22 years; she came to us as a surrendered pet who was on a poor diet, but she weighed around 510g, which is actually closer to what our vet wants. Through the years her weight has gradually decreased, but it appears that that has been thanks to misguided keepers. We have a heavy emphasis on training at our zoo, and it seems that keepers were lowering her weight to "get her to work better" and over the past two decades she had gotten down to about 420g. She last weighed that in March, when I took over. Part of the problem was that she is not a very tactile bird and doesn't typically allow anyone to touch her anywhere and especially her keel, so I guess they didn't know. I've worked really hard with her on it and she allows me to do it, which of course is proving to be enormously helpful when trying to gauge our progress. And I'm definitely going to check out that contact you posted.

Thanks everyone who has responded with all of their support and great ideas

 

[ShaunaR]

I just wanted to say that I think this is perhaps the most beautiful Amazon I have ever seen! I hope she is doing better now as I realize that I am late into this thread. Thank you for the pictures and the dscussion as it has really helped us out!

 

[sparrow]

I can't even begin to tell you how much that makes my day

 

[SailBoat]

Since, the Zoo is already purchasing 'seed,' it would seem possible that supplier maybe a source for an expanded dry-diet offering. Worth checking into (see below)!

From a purely research standpoint, I recommend that you look at Goldenfeast-direct website. Once at the site, look under 'complete line.'

Look at the different blends found under the following offerings (click on each for more information):
Basic Plus
California Blend
Caribbean South
Fruit and Nuts Plus
Pacific Coast Blend
Central American I
Central American II

Based on the home range that one's Amazon is from, it is possible to use a single pre-blended package or better, by getting two or more difference packages, create a custom blend. By adding a percentage of pellets, that Amazon gets a well-balanced diet with a cross-section of dry-foods common to their home range and at the same time a diet that is 'interesting' to the Amazon.

Once again, this is purely research based on the range of dry-diets available today from just one of the many suppliers. Check with the Zoo's current 'seed' supplier and determine if they offer wide-base dry-diet(s) separate from their straight 'seed' offering.

Have fun understanding the range of the dry-diet(s) available in your Amazon's home range.

 

[henpecked]

I'd like someone to tell me what the typical "home range' for a DYH might be. Different subspecies are found in a variety of habitats. feeding on totally different forage at different times of the year . Different elevations, different sides of the mountain range, isolated islands, etc. how could you possibly "mimic" a natural diet. Try different pellets until he 'll eat one. 100% of my many ,many zons eat pellets as a stable diet item. part of a variety of foods. Rehomed seed junkies included.It can be done.

 

[SailBoat]

Yellow-headed as with Double Yellow-Headed Amazons are fundamentally found in the rain forested to areas with scattered trees (lightly forested plains) including evergreen and mangrovers. Areas more commonly found in Central America: Southern Mexico, Belize, etc... This also include a few islands generally near the coastal populations. Where like forest ranges (bands) are found elsewhere in the world, these Amazon can habitat them when introduced.

Although this range includes both the slopes through ocean beaches, the range of forests (trees) are similar and therefor possible to define a cross section of naturally found seeds, grains, etc...

This banding of like trees can be seen when comparing areas as widely separated as Michigan and Sweden. Forests, grass and grains 'tend to occur' (band) driven by a combination of soil, rainfall and temperature.

At the end of the day, this is more a disagreement of whether 100% pellet based dry-diet or a wider based dry-diet including a wide range of seeds, grains, nuts, etc... (which includes a percentage of pellets) is the better diet.

At this point, one of us believes in 100% pellet base dry-diet and the other in a varied dry-diet, which includes a percentage of pellets. Since each of us can point and quote from our list of experts, this can represent a standstill or an opportunity. I do not believe that one of us is fully wrong and the other is fully right. But that the knowledge base regarding parrots is ever growing and therefor an opportunity for our parrots.