Aggression in Angus my boy eclectus

[Peppagirl]

Hi everyone, just a bit frustrated and upset. As you may know I got Angus 6 months ago when he was 4 months old, it's been quite a battle to have him feel comfortable with me and vice versa!!

I really need advice on how to deal with him biting, growling and lately screaming. I spend as much time with him as I do Peppa but he seems so scared all the time, he has been like this since I have got him. I must admit that I haven't spent one on one with him as Peppa is always with me and I don't want her to get jealous or feel left out.

Today was especially a bad day, he bit me so hard that I screamed and I must say accidently dropped him on the floor, so it's like I have gone 10 steps backwards. Every time I went up to his cage he would growl at me and lunge which is quite upsetting. After coming home from dinner at around 9.00 I got both of them out of their cages, yes he actually stepped up, I spent time with them talking and giving them their favourite treat of slithered almonds. After a while I put Peppa to bed and decided to spend a little time with Angus on his own just holding him on my hand and talking to him. He seemed ok for a little while but then he starts to growl at me and tries to bite my hand. So before it got out of hand I put him to bed and of course I said a lovely goodnight and I receive a GROWL.

I'm at my wits end Angus spends a considerable amount of time out of his cage as I work from home, if I'm outside gardening or mowing he is outside with me in the tree watching . Whatever Peppa gets he receives the same. Is he always going to be like this or am I expecting too much in 6 months? When he is with Peppa he also seems very on edge with her unless she has something he wants then he is ok with her.

I'm sorry for the long post but I'm very upset that he is like this.

Thanks Steph.

 

[SailBoat]

Well if your upset with him, your not going to be at all happy with me!

First, when you interact with one Parrot, its just not a good idea to have another with you. Especially if you are try to develop a relationship with the new guy. One on One is so very important when developing a relationship. Consider if someone wanted to become friends with you and as part of every meeting that person comes with their other friend and the majority of time spent is interacting with the other person. How would you respond.

Second, have you re-read the first set of Threads in the Eclectus section lately? Yes, they may not provide the kind of handbook, step by step of the Amazon and MAC sections, but they do provide insight that your could be missing.

Third, its never the fault of the Parrot and always the fault of the Human. By starting and continuing from this position, you will more quickly pick-up on what you are doing wrong.

You are really in a position that 'Starting Over' may make more sense. Develop the foundation of a relationship and work forward from there.

 

[Violet_Diva]

I know I have very little experience, and it's not the same situation, as I've only had my eclectus for about a month and a half! But the similarity lies in that my eclectus really wasn't too fond of me for a while. She would lunge and growl and bite and twist the skin of my hand pretty badly and was drawing blood. I even started to think she would always be like that with me, but recently we've progressed alot.

I think one problem I had early on was over thinking. If I was thinking negatively or felt unsure about my actions I think she totally picked up on it and was more aggressive. It was only when I let go of my complicated thoughts and feelings about her behaviour and started interacting with her in a more clinical way that her attitude towards me got friendlier. By 'clinical' I mean a bit more robotic or formulaic in my actions. Ultimately humans and parrots are two very complex creatures trying to interact and understand one another, and sometimes simplifying our own behaviour and going back to basics can be a good place to start. They seem to feel more relaxed and receptive when they feel confident in knowing what's going on around them. Equally I am aware that consistency is very important.

It might sound crazy, but if he's growling or biting, don't feel sad or disheartened. Feel pleased that you understand and recognise that he's trying to tell you something. He's not trying to tell you he hates you! Maybe he's telling you he's confused about something or scared. It's your job to work out what that is and to work out what best soothes him or makes him feel safe and secure.

I have read that too many seeds and nuts can sometimes cause aggression. If you could give more hand fed treats of something different it might help? I give my Bella pomegranate arils.

I hope you will feel better soon about things and enjoy rebuilding your relationship, and I bet you he will too!

Here's some threads about biting that were suggested to me by Anansi

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/63988-bite-pressure-training.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/questions-answers/58911-bird-bites-always.html

http://www.parrotforums.com/training/57935-brainstorming-biting-parrots.html

Here's my thread where they were suggested to me

http://www.parrotforums.com/new-members-welcome/64083-my-first-parrot-female-vosmaeri-eclectus.html

I really hope you find something that helps

 

[camo]

I can only go off personal experience with Gizmo and Pebbles, but here are some suggestions, which you may or may not already be doing.

* Be confident and have a plan to deal with an attempted bite. Do some reading on how to deal with a bite (techniques to distract and get him to let go, eg I used a thumb and finger technique). Gizmo is good at reading body language, and he will take advantage of a nervious hand (Angus may be doing the same), and I guess it makes sense to not trust someone with nervious energy. I found that to work through Gizmo's biting, I had to face that I was going to get bitten at some stage. Obviously the last thing you wanted to do was drop him to the floor, a good plan to deal with a bite will be essential moving forward, as obviously you will get bitten again (well at least I couldn't work through the biting with Gizmo without getting bitten again.

* Seperate time is very important. I have time with Gizmo and Pebbles together, but also alone time with each. In Angus's case, I would say it is even more important. If it was me, I would set up a training perch in a seperate room. Angus every day (at least), has a good training session with the good treats, a lot of respect and bonding comes from training, so this is important. I also find shower time is a good bonding session (put a change of clothes on first as your going to get wet).

* It's possible you are also experiencing some referred aggression. Pebbles growled at me a few weeks ago, which is very rare for Pebbles, because Gizmo had stirred her up. If Angus does not feel confident in the group, he may be taking it out on you, as your hand is the closest.

I could go on and on, but I think these are the most important things as a starting point to suggest, based on what you have mentioned. The other thing to remember is change will be slow, and you may take a few steps backwards along the way (so be emotionally prepared for that). I think having two can be very rewarding, but also very challenging at times.

Cheers,

Cameron

 

[Peppagirl]

I can only go off personal experience with Gizmo and Pebbles, but here are some suggestions, which you may or may not already be doing.

* Be confident and have a plan to deal with an attempted bite. Do some reading on how to deal with a bite (techniques to distract and get him to let go, eg I used a thumb and finger technique). Gizmo is good at reading body language, and he will take advantage of a nervious hand (Angus may be doing the same), and I guess it makes sense to not trust someone with nervious energy. I found that to work through Gizmo's biting, I had to face that I was going to get bitten at some stage. Obviously the last thing you wanted to do was drop him to the floor, a good plan to deal with a bite will be essential moving forward, as obviously you will get bitten again (well at least I couldn't work through the biting with Gizmo without getting bitten again.

* Seperate time is very important. I have time with Gizmo and Pebbles together, but also alone time with each. In Angus's case, I would say it is even more important. If it was me, I would set up a training perch in a seperate room. Angus every day (at least), has a good training session with the good treats, a lot of respect and bonding comes from training, so this is important. I also find shower time is a good bonding session (put a change of clothes on first as your going to get wet).

* It's possible you are also experiencing some referred aggression. Pebbles growled at me a few weeks ago, which is very rare for Pebbles, because Gizmo had stirred her up. If Angus does not feel confident in the group, he may be taking it out on you, as your hand is the closest.

I could go on and on, but I think these are the most important things as a starting point to suggest, based on what you have mentioned. The other thing to remember is change will be slow, and you may take a few steps backwards along the way (so be emotionally prepared for that). I think having two can be very rewarding, but also very challenging at times.

Cheers,

Cameron

Thank you so much it makes sense, I think I expected another Peppa, so placid. He is much better today, stepping up etc. You are right that I have to spend more one on one with him and NOT expect a change over night. I used to shower with Peppa but never Angus as I was too scared he will bite. Maybe I have to try it again and see how that goes.

Hopefully he will become a little more trusting and know that I'm not trying to hurt him.

 

[Peppagirl]

Well if your upset with him, your not going to be at all happy with me!

First, when you interact with one Parrot, its just not a good idea to have another with you. Especially if you are try to develop a relationship with the new guy. One on One is so very important when developing a relationship. Consider if someone wanted to become friends with you and as part of every meeting that person comes with their other friend and the majority of time spent is interacting with the other person. How would you respond.

Second, have you re-read the first set of Threads in the Eclectus section lately? Yes, they may not provide the kind of handbook, step by step of the Amazon and MAC sections, but they do provide insight that your could be missing.

Third, its never the fault of the Parrot and always the fault of the Human. By starting and continuing from this position, you will more quickly pick-up on what you are doing wrong.

You are really in a position that 'Starting Over' may make more sense. Develop the foundation of a relationship and work forward from there.

Definitely not blaming Angus and I'm not upset with him, I'm more upset with myself that I'm letting this get to me. I most certainly will start spending more one on one time with him and bond more. Thanks so much for your advice.

 

[Anansi]

First, Steph, never any need to apologize for a long post. (At least, I hope not! I'm one of the worst offenders! Lol!) Anyone who has followed your posts knows how deeply you care for your ekkies, so I can imagine how frustrating this must be for you. So let's see if we can help you work through it.

You've already received some first class advice and suggestions from Steven, Violet_Diva and Cameron. One of the things that their posts all had in common was the observation that there is likely a miscommunication going on here between the two of you. The trick is to identify that disconnect and figure out a way to bridge the gap and head off the inappropriate behavior.

The miscommunication could be any number of things. Birds are VERY sensitive to body language. So Angus might be reading something in your movements, such as the nervous energy to which Cameron referred, or frustration, or depression, or any number of other emotions, that is putting him on edge. Why would this put him on edge? Because he lacks the context to understand your behavior. In nature, that body language would likely indicate the presence of a predator... or possibly identify you as one. If you were, say, nervous about him possibly biting you (I don't know if this is the case. Just using it as an example), your nervousness would likely freak him out. Because, in his world, your nervousness makes no sense. His own body language would have revealed, in explicit detail, his exact intentions. So in his mind, there is something else going on. Something that he cannot identify. Something that he doesn't understand. And this would likely frustrate him.

There is also the possibility that he is trying to tell you something... and you're just missing it. In the wild, it's often pointed out that birds aren't as quick to bite each other. But in the wild, their fellow parrots are as well-versed in reading body language as they are. So these kinds of miscommunications just don't exist for them. This being the case, some birds have a little less patience for our relatively poor powers of observation.

I mentioned all that to point out the importance of observing him and noting the exact circumstances each time before he bites. Does this tend to happen near his cage? Or anytime a particular person or bird approaches? Or at a particular time of day?

And note also your own emotional state. Do you approach him with confidence? Or is there some trepidation?

Okay, moving on to separate times. Getting alone time with him might very well help your situation. (Though not at bed time. The situation you described last night might have been triggered by Angus feeling a bit sleepy. Some ekkies get VERY cranky when they're tired.) Cameron's idea about a training perch in a separate room is a solid one. Training time works wonders for bonding.

Also, when you do have them out together, it would be good for you to establish a turn-based method wherein you alternate between them every few minutes. This is what I do
with Jolly and Maya. They caught on quite quickly and now simply wait their turns. No jealousy issues or biting behaviors.

(It's very late, so forgive me if I'm not making much sense at the moment. I'll look at this post again when I wake and translate any gibberish as necessary. Lol!)

 

[Peppagirl]

First, Steph, never any need to apologize for a long post. (At least, I hope not! I'm one of the worst offenders! Lol!) Anyone who has followed your posts knows how deeply you care for your ekkies, so I can imagine how frustrating this must be for you. So let's see if we can help you work through it.

You've already received some first class advice and suggestions from Steven, Violet_Diva and Cameron. One of the things that their posts all had in common was the observation that there is likely a miscommunication going on here between the two of you. The trick is to identify that disconnect and figure out a way to bridge the gap and head off the inappropriate behavior.

The miscommunication could be any number of things. Birds are VERY sensitive to body language. So Angus might be reading something in your movements, such as the nervous energy to which Cameron referred, or frustration, or depression, or any number of other emotions, that is putting him on edge. Why would this put him on edge? Because he lacks the context to understand your behavior. In nature, that body language would likely indicate the presence of a predator... or possibly identify you as one. If you were, say, nervous about him possibly biting you (I don't know if this is the case. Just using it as an example), your nervousness would likely freak him out. Because, in his world, your nervousness makes no sense. His own body language would have revealed, in explicit detail, his exact intentions. So in his mind, there is something else going on. Something that he cannot identify. Something that he doesn't understand. And this would likely frustrate him.

There is also the possibility that he is trying to tell you something... and you're just missing it. In the wild, it's often pointed out that birds aren't as quick to bite each other. But in the wild, their fellow parrots are as well-versed in reading body language as they are. So these kinds of miscommunications just don't exist for them. This being the case, some birds have a little less patience for our relatively poor powers of observation.

I mentioned all that to point out the importance of observing him and noting the exact circumstances each time before he bites. Does this tend to happen near his cage? Or anytime a particular person or bird approaches? Or at a particular time of day?

And note also your own emotional state. Do you approach him with confidence? Or is there some trepidation?

Okay, moving on to separate times. Getting alone time with him might very well help your situation. (Though not at bed time. The situation you described last night might have been triggered by Angus feeling a bit sleepy. Some ekkies get VERY cranky when they're tired.) Cameron's idea about a training perch in a separate room is a solid one. Training time works wonders for bonding.

Also, when you do have them out together, it would be good for you to establish a turn-based method wherein you alternate between them every few minutes. This is what I do
with Jolly and Maya. They caught on quite quickly and now simply wait their turns. No jealousy issues or biting behaviors.

(It's very late, so forgive me if I'm not making much sense at the moment. I'll look at this post again when I wake and translate any gibberish as necessary. Lol!)

Thanks Anansi for your kind words and you can see how much I adore my 2 babies, I certainly value your advice. Angus tends bite if I need to get him down off the top of his cage as I need to go out and I don't want them unsupervised if I'm not home or if he is on my arm or hand and I go to pat him well he goes mental and just does not like it at all. He's been like that since day one. He's happy in his own space.

I had them both out tonight for quiet time on the lounge with me tonight and he walked up to me and was happily nibbling on my jumper. The moment I went to touch him he flapped his wings and growled, so I slowly moved my hand away with no reaction and let him be. I can do anything with Peppa and I suppose I crave that for him. I truly think spending one on one with him and evenly split my time with them both hopefully Peppa won't get jealous.

ill keep working on him and definitely won't give up, who knows miracles happen haha!! I'll keep in touch and let you know how it's going.

Once again thanks for understanding and I really value your advice.

Steph

 

[Violet_Diva]

I also can't get Bella to step up when she's on the top of her castle! She gets a bit nippy. I can however get her to fly to my arm when I bait her with a treat, and from there I can then get her to step up onto a perch which is affixed to the inside of her door (so when the door is open, the perch is kinda in the room.) Then I just close the door, she goes for a little ride, and then she's back in her cage! Ta dah

 

[Peppagirl]

I also can't get Bella to step up when she's on the top of her castle! She gets a bit nippy. I can however get her to fly to my arm when I bait her with a treat, and from there I can then get her to step up onto a perch which is affixed to the inside of her door (so when the door is open, the perch is kinda in the room.) Then I just close the door, she goes for a little ride, and then she's back in her cage! Ta dah

I should try that little trick with Angus, very clever!! Thank you for your help.

 

[wrench13]

Bedtime is the only time Salty gets cranky and bitey, but his bite even then is tempered a lot from what he COULD do. He just does not want to hit the sack and miss anything. He kinda roosts at the highest point on his chain that runs across the room, I have to reach up and use the backward step up. Hey all parrots are entitled to get cranky at bed time.
If Angus gets bitey coming off his cage, have you tried using a perch to get him to step up initially? I;m a believer that the step up command is the only one that a parrot does not get a choice on. Just too many things can happen where you will need to get him back into his cage, and having the screw around getting him in may be a problem. Also the comment above aabout training being important bonding time is so true. For Salty and I, we both look forward to our nightly sessions eagerly, him especially. From working every night with Angus, being consistent with what you ask him to do, using his most yummy treats ONLY for the sessions, I bet you can get him to step up to your hand in no time at all. Training time builds trust, IMHO.

 

[camo]

Steph,

Gizmo also likes his personal space. This is a training session that may help (it has certainly helped me and Gizmo).

Give Angus a treat that takes some time to eat, and then gradually get into his personal space as he eats (a touch of the wing, beak, pat on the head, etc). I did this with Gizmo, with the purpose of desensitising Gizmo, by having him prioritising the food over stopping me touching him (and also having the touch be a positive experience), but I think the real advantage, was it taught me how to read his body language better and show him that if I push things too far, I will back off if he asks me without him needing to bite me.

I don't think Gizmo will ever be the super cuddly eclectus that I have heard some are (his most cuddly thing is to climb up my shoulder and lean into my neck), but at least now, he thinks before lashing out, and isn't triggered when I get a bit close unexpectedly (well most of the time)

Cheers,

Cameron

 

[Peppagirl]

Steph,

Gizmo also likes his personal space. This is a training session that may help (it has certainly helped me and Gizmo).

Give Angus a treat that takes some time to eat, and then gradually get into his personal space as he eats (a touch of the wing, beak, pat on the head, etc). I did this with Gizmo, with the purpose of desensitising Gizmo, by having him prioritising the food over stopping me touching him (and also having the touch be a positive experience), but I think the real advantage, was it taught me how to read his body language better and show him that if I push things too far, I will back off if he asks me without him needing to bite me.

I don't think Gizmo will ever be the super cuddly eclectus that I have heard some are (his most cuddly thing is to climb up my shoulder and lean into my neck), but at least now, he thinks before lashing out, and isn't triggered when I get a bit close unexpectedly (well most of the time)

Cheers,

Cameron

That's a great idea, his favourite treats are slithered almonds. I'm definitely going to try that.