Advice on how to handle sad "breeding" day

[JustJenn]

Blue and Gold Macaws

I'll give just the summary to get to the point.

We aren't breeders and were not looking to before and are not looking to in the future.

Our pair cannot be separated. It's traumatic for them.

They have been together over 30 years. Had an egg, we were shocked it hatched. As expected, the chick didn't make it.

Momma is protecting it anyways. She is being very aggressive as if it were still alive.

Do we let her abandon it, or take it away?

My only concern is their physical and emotional well being. (If we could have put them in different enclosures, we would have)

I wish this wasn't my first post. I'll intro another day but right now I'm just worried about Precious.

 

[noodles123]

Welcome and sorry it is under such sad circumstances!
This post is not what I expected and I am sorry- that must be very traumatic and stressful.
I am not sure what to do...in the future, if an egg is laid, many users suggest boiling it to prevent it from hatching and/or breaking before hatch. That is still a tough one for me to swallow, but I only have one bird, so hopefully I won't have to make that call.


I am sure that someone here will know what to do.



In the meantime, thanks for posting and good luck

 

[JustJenn]

I struggled with the title for the subject.

I totally understand in nature, there is natural selection. I couldn't have gotten near her egg if I wanted to without causing injury - she's ... mean, on a good day. So boiling it would be a no-go for me on many levels. I'd buy an incubator and become a breeder first (I don't want to become a breeder)

There really isn't a lot of information on the internet but my husband and I have read we should let her decide when it's time ... I still just want to ensure I am doing the right thing for them, even if we all know, we already did them wrong by letting it get this far.

Thank you for taking the time to reply. I really appreciate it.

 

[noodles123]

I imagine that at some point, she will realize that it isn't alive and lose interest. I hope...
At that point, you will have to find a way to remove the chick.
Are gloves an option or can you put the birds in another location while you enter the cage (assuming interest fades)?
Again, I am sure someone else will respond (this is a very active forum, so I hope you stick around---lots of good advice).

 

[itzjbean]

Macaws bond and mate for life so I would NOT separate them.

However, all eggs laid can be boiled and taken away!

Are they in an aviary, or where did you find the hatched egg at? usually they don't lay unless there is a nesting box, which hopefully you do not have.

There is an incubation period with macaws that is I believe around a month, during this time you did not see any incubation/egg at all?? I feel as though you would've noticed it right away if they were inside your house with you or in a cage and with daily food and water changes. That would be hard to miss. So how was this missed?

In the future just boil any eggs laid, replace with a dummy egg, or you can throw it away also to prevent hatching. It can be very easily prevented.

 

[ChristaNL]

For one - the dead chick, leave it for a bit, they will realise it is no longer alive at some point (probably will go a bit balistic/ if what I hear about them is correct), after that you can remove it because they will no longer be guarding it so fiercely.
(All intelligent animals grieve in some way.)

Maybe this was a 'once off' and it will never happen again, or it could just been a practice round and they will try tro really fill the world with B&G's.

If you do not want babies (and I can imagine you do not) then boil the eggs or swap them for artificial ones. (That way you only have to brave their agression only once: swap and removal day instead of taking the egg out and half a day later putting it back again.)
Or make sure you can reach into the nestbox from the outside

You can also allow them their learning curve (hands off completely) and just let them get on with it, succesfull or not, but you may end up with bucketloads of babies...
(and another/ multiple painfull failures on the way to that- completely normal for birds, but we humans have issues with it.)

or anything in between, but then we are talking handraising, maybe even incubators/ and I am not sure you have the time, familylife, stamina etc. for it, especially if they start really having a go at it and like some couples will try to nest non-stop ...
(we had a breeder here that after removing the nestboxes etc. because he decided it was enough, got suprised by yet another nest, on the ground, in the snow!)

 

[JustJenn]

Thank you for the replies.

My hubs actually understands breeding exotics, but he has never done birds, and has totally retired from anything more than turning into a spayed/neutered cat person until we adopted Precious and Pretty Boy because their dad could no longer care for them.

HE, had looked into a breeding box and had asked me to order one not with the intention of successfully breeding, but to let them do their thing. Well, they were already doing their thing and before I could order one to be made (which would have taken an additional two weeks for transit), we had an egg on the bottom of the cage. Oddly, they chose the enclosure at work vs the bigger outdoor one at home. (Note: they are happier at work because they get more interaction here and do have room to stretch out and climb around some).

After having them several years we were kinda surprised to find the egg (and that there is just the one) and called a friend who has an incubator, but in the end left them alone to parent on their own.

I had read about subbing with a fake egg, but had not read about boiling it. We really didn't think it would be viable anyways ... and were prepared for it not to make it whether we intervened or not. We just never considered she'd be so attached after what I think is the 2nd full day of it having passed.

I hope she looses interest soon. For her, but also for us. I'm tired of getting attacked twice a day when changing food and water (they are fine with bottom of enclosure cleaning as long as we stayed away from their make-shift nest haha) Plus, I think Pretty Boy is growing tired of fending us off and would like to be held and pet again (she's never allowed it, she hates everyone but I am getting off topic)


So again, thank you for replies. Maybe tomorrow ...

I hope I am making sense. This tiny reply box is interesting. Next time I write a book length reply I'll do it in word or something and do the copy/paste thing. I've edited myself so many times before hitting "reply" I've confused myself.

 

[noodles123]

Birds are entirely unique. The presence of proper conditions has a direct impact on the likelihood of breeding. Therefore, by providing a box, you basically submitted a request for babies in writing lol/eek.
That is not to say that bird will never reproduce in improper conditions, but the likelihood is much less...In a captive scenario with a male and a female, plus excess food and eternal summer temperatures, by adding a nest box, you are tipping the already favored scaled towards reproduction.
Also, if you ever do have chicks that you hand-raise, feeding is every 30 min to an hour 24/7 for a significant chunk of time.
Make sure your female has adequate supplies of calcium (cuttle bone, leaf greens etc) because laying an egg is a stress on the system and lacking nutrients can result in egg-binding.

 

[JustJenn]

We never did get the box, but agree they felt being at our work was a great environment to breed. Silly birds. This is also the nicest I've ever seen him behave towards her.

 

[noodles123]

We never did get the box, but agree they felt being at our work was a great environment to breed. Silly birds. This is also the nicest I've ever seen him behave towards her.

LOL much like humans in that respect HAHA (is that terrible?...I say it jokingly...kind of)....


Glad you didn't get the box--doing so would ensure more of this.

 

[JustJenn]

We never did get the box, but agree they felt being at our work was a great environment to breed. Silly birds. This is also the nicest I've ever seen him behave towards her.

LOL much like humans in that respect HAHA (is that terrible?...I say it jokingly...kind of)....


Glad you didn't get the box--doing so would ensure more of this.

I've always thought they could use marriage counseling. At home, we'd let them waddle about around the pool and he'd try to get some space, she'd chase him down. He can be ... a jerk, she can be a nag. It's pretty funny to watch. We can't touch her, and she gets mad if we touch her ... so it's nice to see them being loving towards each other. Even this morning, he was feeding her as she won't leave the chick except to get her own drink of water then she rushes right back if we get near them.

 

[LordTriggs]

is a shame you have to see them going through this. I'd agree in letting her try to work through her loss in her own time. Of course at some point the chick will need to be removed before it begins decomposing, hopefully she will have worked through things before that.

It could possibly be that her enclosure at work being smaller is what has triggered their breeding, they could potentially see it as a good nest especially in comparison to their larger enclosure.

I'd say dummy eggs in the future is the way to go with her so you only have to brave her maw once and then she can get on with her business in peace.

Aside from that though it sounds like you've been doing really well with these 2, they sound quite typical for older bonded birds not wanting to deal with humans as much. It sounds like the male is a bit more open to you than the female so fingers crossed seeing him interact with you on friendly terms may let her slowly over time figure out you're not that bad. All you can do for now at least is to keep them happy and entertained as can be and hopefully given some time she may open up to you more.

 

[ChristaNL]

It could possibly be that her enclosure at work being smaller is what has triggered their breeding, they could potentially see it as a good nest especially in comparison to their larger enclosure.

Nice catch... that could have been be precisely the trigger for them.


A friend of mine has an amazon-too combination in a cage. (She also recues broken pets, so this just happened one day.)
One of them is completely blind, the other one takes care of the blind bird... but one of them gets broody every single year and will sit on a toy for about 2-3 weeks, mumbling and whistling to it- just the usual completely endearing things mothers-to-be do.
After 3 weeks the toy ( of course) does not hatch...so the "baby" does not start to respond aka 'has died'.
That bird goes into deep grief and complete overreaction for 3 days straight... after that she (?) waddles away and a toy is once again just a toy :52: birds....

 

[EllenD]

Hi Jenn...I'm sorry that this is happening to you...I'm assuming that these guys were a parent-raised, non-tame breeding-pair prior to you adopting them? Are you able to handle them or interact with them at all when they are not nesting? It's normal for them to protect the dead chick, eggs, etc., and it is the right thing to do to let them realize that the chick is dead and until they lose interest...HOWEVER...

With some parrots they already know the chick is dead, but they will still be aggressive and want to keep it away from anything and everything forever...Obviously you cannot let the dead chick in their cage much longer, as once it starts to decompose it is unhealthy for them, you, etc. You will have not only bacteria, fungi, etc. all through their cage and your home, but also insects, even if it is winter where you live...That's how decomp works...So if they don't stop protecting the dead chick within another day or so, you just have to get it out of there somehow, because it does and will get to the point where it's totally unhealthy for everyone...

I have seen this happen a few times over the years with breeding-pairs who have been surrendered to the Avian Rescue I work for, and there was a breeding-pair of Orange-Winged Amazons who did this, and their owners didn't know what to do so they decided to dump them inside of their cage on our doorstep...And I just put on a pair of welder's gloves (this was a non-tame, typical breeding-pair of parrots who wanted nothing to do with people, certainly not people inside of their cage), and I covered my arms with several layers of sleeves with the welder's gloves going up over my elbows almost to my shoulders (thank god), opened the cage just far enough to get my hand/arm inside, kept my face/head outside of the cage and turned away from their direction, and just hurried up and grabbed the dead chick and yanked it out...That's how I typically get eggs they lay occasionally out too if they are a non-tame breeding-pair that you can't handle...Then we boil the eggs and put them right back in after they cool-down, and do this with each egg they lay in a clutch...And eventually they do lose interest in the eggs. That takes about a week or two AFTER the typical incubation period, when they finally realize the eggs aren't going to hatch for them to stop laying on them...And they typically won't start laying on the eggs until at least 2 are laid, which is totally normal...

***I don't know the history of your birds, whether they were pets or breeder's in their prior life, but it sounds like you adopted a non-tame breeding-pair of parrots...You can't separate them because with Macaws it will only result in two very aggressive, depressed birds that will both be plucking, self-mutilating, screaming, etc. So that's not an option...But what you do need to do is modify their environment, their diet, etc. so that nothing is causing them to be hormonal and encouraging them to breed. It is very possible to have a non-tame, bonded breeding-pair of parrots living together inside of the same cage that do not breed...But it's going to be up to you guys to know the do's and don't's of that and stick to the rules...

I've seen former breeding-pairs of parrots who were parent-raised and never tame turn into very sweet pet parrots...But it take a lot of work, and most of all patience and time. I don't know what your goal for these birds is, but you definitely need to remove any and all boxes of any kind, and eliminate any and all small, dark places that either of the can get into or underneath...NEVER any nest-boxes, cardboard boxes, blankets, towels, any types of "bedding" like wood-chips, shredded paper, etc. Nothing that can be used as nesting material. Always allow any eggs that are laid to simply lay on the bottom grate of the cage, never put them in any type of "nest". No Huts, tents, hammocks, or "beds" of any kind.

Also, they need to be on a "Natural Light Schedule" for sure...If you use the search function here on the forum and search of that, you will find many posts with detailed explanations of what a "Natural Light Schedule" is...Basically it means that their cage needs to be in an area/room with a window so that they can see the natural light changes at both sunrise and sunset, and they need to wake with sunrise as they see it happen (which they typically do anyway unless they are covered at night, if they are covered then the cover must be removed right at sunrise), and then they need to be able to watch the sunset and then go to sleep right as they watch the sunset. So if you cover them for bed, that means allowing them to watch the light changes that naturally occur with sunset, and then cover them right after the sun sets...This means that depending on the time of the year, they are going to be going to bed at 9:00 at night in the summer, and 5:30 at night in the winter...But this is EXACTLY what birds do naturally in the wild...ALL BIRDS...This is why we hear birds start chirping in the morning as soon as the sun rises, and we don't hear any birds chirping or see them flying after sunset (except for nocturnal birds like owls of course)...After about a month of getting them on a Natural Light Schedule their hormones will calm and their mating behaviors will cease, but you have to be extremely strict about keeping them on that schedule, and changing that schedule as the seasons change and the time of sunrise and sunset changes.

Also there is their daily diet...What is their normal, daily diet? You need to always avoid all warm, mushy foods, such as hand-feeding formulas, oatmeal, grits, mashed potatoes, anything of that consistency...

***Once they lay their first egg, that's when the danger of them laying egg after egg after egg begins, so if this continues, you should probably consider getting your female to a Certified Avian Vet and having Deslorelin/Suprelorelin Implants put in to shut-down her Reproductive System. That's really the only sure way to keep her healthy and from being bred to death or laying eggs to the point that she is malnourished and emaciated, or before she becomes egg-bound...Make sure that there is always a large Avian Mineral-Block hanging in their cage for her, as she needs the extra Calcium and Phosphorous. You can order them online, or all Petco's sell a pretty large yellow-colored Avian Mineral Block that is shaped like a flower that would be the right size for a Macaw. Also, offering her small dish of Egg-Food during and for a week after she lays an egg will also help to replenish her calcium and the calories she's used. You can buy a bag of Qwiko Egg-Food also at any Petco for $10.

Parrots are not like any other "exotic" animals, and breeding parrots and their hormonal behaviors/activities are nothing like any other "exotics" at all...So it's a very unique, confusing, and very often frustrating process. And there is a TON of very bad information on the internet about this topic, so you also have to be very careful to filter through the BS and not do anything that is going to make the situation worse...You've found by-far the most educated, experienced parrot forum on the internet, so please do not ever hesitate to ask any and all questions that you have...We're all here to help.

 

[JustJenn]

EllenD,

Thank you for taking the time to offer so much of your knowledge. I will soon (hopefully this week) write about them and post it in the Macaw Forum.

But just real quick, they, to my knowledge have always been pets, not for breeding. He is tame, she may have been at one time but I "sense" she was bonded to her first human mom and I think, has abandonment issues and won't allow herself to become attached to a human again (more on that when I write up their history as I know it)

We did tough love (meaning we were ready to take bites as they do not tolerate gloves) and while trying to figure how to get into that corner of their 9x4x6 enclosure, we remembered we (husband) had pull out drawers (for lack of a better word) and just pulled the one out. The chick is now gone and they both almost immediately seemed ... relieved.

We took the canvas cover off of the (not in direct sun light) window we had previously left on in an attempt to give them privacy (it ALWAYS goes back on at night along with blackout curtains on the other side) and i explained it was going to be hard but it is time to move on to the next step of grieving though there is no time table (yes, I do talk to them like I do humans, same with my cats) but they needed to try.

Precious finally climbed up from the bottom of the enclosure and decided to groom herself again (her beak was concerning me with crud building up). She ate a little ... drank a little, and then they decided to mate some more. Ugh.

On the bright side, they are back to being themselves. Climbing around, pooping all over instead of just the one corner at the furthest point from their makeshift nest we removed ... other than Pretty Boy doesn't want to be anyone's pet at the moment because he's trying to ... impress her. I think, it's the shredded paper. We need to go back to another type of lining for the bottom. Because they are pretty much on display all day, we stupidly thought the shredded paper would be a suitable sub for the prettier long paper sheets I am no longer able to acquire. Oh look at me typing more than I intended as I meant to save more details in another post (I'll just repeat myself then ha) but we don't have a vet that specializes in birds here so we are on our own.

They never had an interest in being on the bottom until the shredded paper ...

Long story short, we, humans and birds, are all happier. Thank you so very much!

(I'm not going to proof read myself)

 

[ChristaNL]

W000t, you did it \o/
Glad it turned out allright.



(Except the pair straight away trying for a replacement, Who would have guessed... in nature it makes sense of course: lost the first batch, go for another while you still have the opportunity.)

 

[noodles123]

EllenD,

Thank you for taking the time to offer so much of your knowledge. I will soon (hopefully this week) write about them and post it in the Macaw Forum.

But just real quick, they, to my knowledge have always been pets, not for breeding. He is tame, she may have been at one time but I "sense" she was bonded to her first human mom and I think, has abandonment issues and won't allow herself to become attached to a human again (more on that when I write up their history as I know it)

We did tough love (meaning we were ready to take bites as they do not tolerate gloves) and while trying to figure how to get into that corner of their 9x4x6 enclosure, we remembered we (husband) had pull out drawers (for lack of a better word) and just pulled the one out. The chick is now gone and they both almost immediately seemed ... relieved.

We took the canvas cover off of the (not in direct sun light) window we had previously left on in an attempt to give them privacy (it ALWAYS goes back on at night along with blackout curtains on the other side) and i explained it was going to be hard but it is time to move on to the next step of grieving though there is no time table (yes, I do talk to them like I do humans, same with my cats) but they needed to try.

Precious finally climbed up from the bottom of the enclosure and decided to groom herself again (her beak was concerning me with crud building up). She ate a little ... drank a little, and then they decided to mate some more. Ugh.

On the bright side, they are back to being themselves. Climbing around, pooping all over instead of just the one corner at the furthest point from their makeshift nest we removed ... other than Pretty Boy doesn't want to be anyone's pet at the moment because he's trying to ... impress her. I think, it's the shredded paper. We need to go back to another type of lining for the bottom. Because they are pretty much on display all day, we stupidly thought the shredded paper would be a suitable sub for the prettier long paper sheets I am no longer able to acquire. Oh look at me typing more than I intended as I meant to save more details in another post (I'll just repeat myself then ha) but we don't have a vet that specializes in birds here so we are on our own.

They never had an interest in being on the bottom until the shredded paper ...

Long story short, we, humans and birds, are all happier. Thank you so very much!

(I'm not going to proof read myself)

My bird recently took an interest in shredding the paper beneath her cage grate (fishing it up and acting broody). I eventually removed the paper liner altogether...For the past few weeks, I have just been cleaning the grate and tray directly (without any paper). It seems to work ok.


Even though I am not currently using them, I have found that plain, white paper towels (not the pre-soaped ones or super-scrubber types...just standard white paper-towels) work well as cage liners...assuming your birds don't start prying them up like mine.

 

[EllenD]

EllenD,

Thank you for taking the time to offer so much of your knowledge. I will soon (hopefully this week) write about them and post it in the Macaw Forum.

But just real quick, they, to my knowledge have always been pets, not for breeding. He is tame, she may have been at one time but I "sense" she was bonded to her first human mom and I think, has abandonment issues and won't allow herself to become attached to a human again (more on that when I write up their history as I know it)

We did tough love (meaning we were ready to take bites as they do not tolerate gloves) and while trying to figure how to get into that corner of their 9x4x6 enclosure, we remembered we (husband) had pull out drawers (for lack of a better word) and just pulled the one out. The chick is now gone and they both almost immediately seemed ... relieved.

We took the canvas cover off of the (not in direct sun light) window we had previously left on in an attempt to give them privacy (it ALWAYS goes back on at night along with blackout curtains on the other side) and i explained it was going to be hard but it is time to move on to the next step of grieving though there is no time table (yes, I do talk to them like I do humans, same with my cats) but they needed to try.

Precious finally climbed up from the bottom of the enclosure and decided to groom herself again (her beak was concerning me with crud building up). She ate a little ... drank a little, and then they decided to mate some more. Ugh.

On the bright side, they are back to being themselves. Climbing around, pooping all over instead of just the one corner at the furthest point from their makeshift nest we removed ... other than Pretty Boy doesn't want to be anyone's pet at the moment because he's trying to ... impress her. I think, it's the shredded paper. We need to go back to another type of lining for the bottom. Because they are pretty much on display all day, we stupidly thought the shredded paper would be a suitable sub for the prettier long paper sheets I am no longer able to acquire. Oh look at me typing more than I intended as I meant to save more details in another post (I'll just repeat myself then ha) but we don't have a vet that specializes in birds here so we are on our own.

They never had an interest in being on the bottom until the shredded paper ...

Long story short, we, humans and birds, are all happier. Thank you so very much!

(I'm not going to proof read myself)

My bird recently took an interest in shredding the paper beneath her cage grate (fishing it up and acting broody). I eventually removed the paper liner altogether...For the past few weeks, I have just been cleaning the grate and tray directly (without any paper). It seems to work ok.


Even though I am not currently using them, I have found that plain, white paper towels (not the pre-soaped ones or super-scrubber types...just standard white paper-towels) work well as cage liners...assuming your birds don't start prying them up like mine.

Plain old paper-towels are a great bottom of the cage liner...This is what I use at the Rescue for all of the Reptiles that don't require a substrate or shouldn't have any loose substrate at all, like Bearded Dragons, certain Geckos, etc...They are absorbent, and the soiled ones can easily just be quickly removed and replaced...Do more than one layer on the bottom, and then you also save on constant cleaning of the tray. People insist constantly on putting loose-substrates in their Bearded Dragon's tanks, everything from bark, wood chips, that terrible Calcium Sand that literally forms hard, cement rocks when it gets wet (imagine what it does when they eat it), and the deadly Crushed Walnut Shells that are razor sharp and totally non-digestible, and they literally hack their insides apart...So the first thing we do is remove all of that garbage from their tanks when they are surrendered, sanitize them, and put down regular white paper-towels. That's it. Works wonders...