Advice needed normal/abnormal baby Jenday behaviour

[Libs]

Hi to everyone

I am sorry that this is the first place that I am posting without doing an introduction in that thread first, but I am in a bit of a rush for advice (and it is amazing how often I have read that from other bird owners, lol).

Usually, I would not have to ask for this type of advice as a usually spend several months researching bird species before bringing one home.

However, this has been a rather impromptu addition to the family.

On Friday last week, I stopped off to price tarantula enclosures at the local pet shop.

They are usually fairly okay with their treatment of birds so I was appalled to see how they were keeping a baby Jenday ringneck. I believe it is about 4 to 5 weeks old (although I am not sure as I am not familiar with conure babies as a rule).

It was in a large glass aquarium lined with a thin layer of sawdust under fairly bright lights. There was no area for it to hide under & it was engaging in fairly OCD behaviour, repeatedly rocking back & forth while trying to climb the glass in the far corner. Whenever anyone approached the tank (which was open) or tried to put their hand in, it rolled onto its back hissing noisily & kicking with its feet.

The little chap did not look at all happy, but I left without doing anything (My attention became even more distracted by the discovery of a little peachfaced lovebird in a cage of Fischers whose only feathers were on his head & wings. He was my other impromptu move this weekend & came home with us, as I have dealt with plucked/plucking birds before).

However, the plight of the little Jenday preyed on my mind all weekend and on Sunday I raised the issue of returning and getting it with my husband (who raised several objections & then disappeared off in a grumpy mood, only to admit 10 minutes later that he had also been worried & and my raising the issue had only made him feel even more guilty about doing nothing).

As I have mentioned, I am not usually given to impromtu bird acquisitions, it can result in disaster for both bird and owner & I have to think about the rest of our fids. However, I have dealt with birds with behaviourial issues before & seeing that level of OCD in something that young, as well as how it was being kept prompted me to act. It was like seeing a child in an abusive context & being fully aware of how this would affect its future development & behaviour if nothing was done.

When we returned on Sunday, there were 4 more conures in the aquarium (2 green-cheeked and 2 yellow-headed Jendays - this ones head is covered in very orange/red quills).

We got the little baby home and asides from screeching and yelling whenever we approached it, it was fairly apathetic.
I spent a bit of time cuddling, pretend grooming (it is very quilly) and it eventually calmed down and indulged in a spot of beakgrinding/wing-flitting and fell asleep on me.

On Monday I took to work with us (I have a bird-friendly boss). It was still a bit apathetic but I put this down to the fact that it was from suffering from a slight bout of slow crop which we managed to clear over the day. It also initially every now and again adopted fear responses when approached. However tt gradually has become more & more active and began to call from its box whenever it heard our voices.

By the time I got it home, it was vocalizing quite a lot and seemed to enjoy being held. It fed normally, body functions seemed fine & responded to the sound of our voices with loud calls.

However, today has been very different. The little guy has not really been quiet for an instant. I realize that conures are relatively vocal birds, but I am not sure whether what I am hearing is indicative of some type of distress.

He/she is feeding normally & all body functions are normal. The petshop had him on 3 feeds a day, but I think this might have been convenience feeding since the guy admitted they have all their babies on that. He is being fed 4 to 5 times a day. I usually base this on how soon his crop empties since it is still a bit slow. He does vocalize constantly if he hears our voices so we have kept him in a quiet room so he can get enough rest.

We are definitely trying to make sure that he gets enough sleep and does not become overstimulated.

However, when we do hold him & try to cuddle him, he still makes a very plaintive calling sound....constantly. It is very similar to the sound he makes when hungry, except he even after he is feb he continues to make this sound. Even when it is apparent that he is enjoying being held, he does not really cuddle, he sits upright swaying and makes this plaintive cry. Also, there have been very limited beak grinds, wing flits/shuffles today which I usually associate with happy bird behaviour in comparison to yesterday & even Sunday..

Although he also does briefly nibble fingers & wooden toys, he does not really engage in any play activities that I would expect at this age. Asides from wing-flapping occasionally he is also fairly sedentary.

I am concerned about the constant crying but I am not sure if this is because he is:
(i) Ill or in pain in some way that is not apparent to me
(ii) Hungry....which seems unlikely because he cries constantly, even when his crop is full. I am concerned that if the petshop crop fed him - which would appear to be the case because of how he tries to swallow the rubber syringe attachment - they might have stretched his crop & he is constantly hungry because he does not feel full. However, I have watched a number of youtube clips with experienced conure experts handfeeding babies & it would not appear that his crop capacity is unnatural.
(iii) He is overstimulated & reacting like a tired baby
(iv) He does have some serious behavioural problems.....which is quite likely
(v) He might be slightly brain-damaged
(iv) I am an idiot who is reacting like any poorly informed, new fid parent and this is normal baby conure behaviour.

I can deal with the constant crying.....if I know it is normal.

And if there is a problem, I can deal with that too.

If he is sick, my vet is excellent & specializes in birds. If there is some brain damage, well so what, He will just take special care.

I just need to know how to to respond to help this baby.

Please, can all the experienced conure parents out there enlighten me.

Thanks

Belinda


PS. I am uploading a photo of NB (New baby till we settle on an appropriate name for him. Or it might stay as NB or NBB for Important Bird or Important Baby...lol). Maybe someone could improve on his my age gestimate.


PSS. NB or NBB has just fed and is sitting huddled under my shirt peeping softly. 1st time he has made what appear to be contented sounds. Either his crying all day wore him out or he is happy. Damn...once again I am so impressed with people who adopt 3 or 4 yr old kids who speak a different language & are from a totally different culture. Fid babies are hard enough.

 

[Doves1]

I'm not a conure type person so I don't think I can give you very many tips but I MUST say Bravo! Well done for saving this little one! Pet stores that get in pets they know nothing about or just don't care about make me so angry!! I have a local pet store like that as well but she has Bearded Dragon's in which she is not taking care of (I also own Beardies). I've reported her and now action is taking place.

You should consider reporting that pet store and having something done about the cruelty to this beautiful birds.

Good luck in taming/raising this little beautiful bird!

 

[Libs]

I totally agree with you about bad petshops. The laws in this country are great & so if I report any petshop, my vet (who also provides free service to our government - South Africa - for both local wildlife (rhinos etc), parrots & exotics) is awesome. He refuses to charge for wild animals/birds or pensioners (birds over a certain age). Some owners probably think he is a 'House/Doc Martin' vet. I like him because he is stern with owners & great with patients. And the bane of evil petstores. There are a lot of petstores that do not like me because I call in my vet & report them. He then has (because of free government duties) the authority to confiscate the animals in question & we send them to the best rehab center (my aunt takes bearded booys, iguanas & she is great with burnt babies). I usually deal with snakes, wild baby birds, some species of parrots who need rehabbing & odd things like bats).

I have already alerted my Vet, but I will give the petshop a call because in the 10 years I have used them I have never seen such treatment. I will admit that I have never bought a bird from them before. I prefer to get my birds from friends who keep birds as a hobby. Usually. the only times I get them from petshops is because they are rescues. But this id the only petshop that dead with specialist pets (snakes, crocodiles etc) or exotics. I have always been so impressed with their treatment....exceptionally high. They also spend a huge amount of money breeding & releasing threatened reptile & amphibian species in South Africa. I am hoping this is a unique event.

Love your the pic of your Macaw.I am Godmom to a Catalina.She used to be fairly anti-social & hated females but we have worked together for 6 years & now she is amazing. My fav god child/fid

 

[Featheredsamurai]

Did they really have them on sawdust!? That is not healthy for a birds respiratory system at all.

 

[Libs]

Sawdust has me so freaked out. Never see that before.....never seen babies in sawdust before.

 

[Doves1]

Thanks! He's my pride and joy!

Sawdust is very very bad for the respiratory system and that would be hell to clean out. Glad you got at least one baby out of that environment. Let's hope someone else comes along for the others

 

[BoomBoom]

I was gonna post yesterday but had no time. Just wanted to thank you for saving that bird. It seems so miserable the way they kept him, I hope he didn't have to suffer for long. I hope action gets taken against that pet store.

I haven't heard the behavior you described but seems very strange to me. I'm sure with your good vet available you already have plans on getting him checked out. This bird will need lots of patience and reassurance, it's possibly developed phobic tendencies. I wish you guys the best.

Keep us updated

 

[Libs]

Hi

Thanks so much to everyone for answering.

Our little guy (whose name is yet to be decided and which is currently under debate) was doing alright until this morning. He was playing, wing-flapping & preening. His pitiful crying had decreased & he was only sqawking when he wanted food or cuddles or to indicate boredom (it is amazing how quickly people learn to tell the difference in parrot speak). He definitely has behavioral problems, but has already shown an improvement in these.

Last night, he was fine & active. This mornig was a totally different story.

I am going to try to describe his symptoms at this point in as much detail as possible, hopefully this might help other fid parents at a later stage.


We tried to give him his first feed & he was not interested. I have sometimes found that with baby birds, it is not uncommon for them to start feeding slowly in the morning if you do not give them enough time to wake up properly.

He made all the relevant feeding noises & was very vocal, but kept spitting out the majority of the food (and it was at the correct temperature).

He was also showing signs of developing slow crop again:31:.

His stools were also very tarry (very black) & had very little white & he was excreting quite often. They also had an odd smell.

His head bobbing was different as opposed to what I have seen (via youtube) for baby conures & his tail was bobbing. You could also hear a rasping, whispery sound when he exhaled/inhaled and a clicking sound.

His breath also did appear to smell the lightest bit strange. I am not sure how to describe the smell here. A bit sour, but also fruity. Maybe like apple cider vinegar?

We rushed him off to the vet & and after discussing the symptoms and examining him, he emptiied and washed the baby's crop. He said the crop contents smelled sour (it did....he always shows/demonstrates to me about what he is talking about or doing).

Our little chap diagnosed with Candida (yeast infection) & Slow Crop & is on the proper treatment. This has affected his respiration (the sawdust he was in at the petshop probably did not help here). The vet, (making one of his usual birdie quips) said that is a 'chicken and egg' situation. In otherwords, there is no way of knowing whether the Slow Crop was caused by the Candida or vice versa.

I will also explain the vets instructions for treatment, in case it every helps anyone else.

My apologies for everyone on this wonderful forum who knows. Definitely not trying to teach anyone to 'Suck Eggs' :09:. Most of you guys probably do this.

I just want to make a contribution to the wealth of information currently offered here for 1st time fid parent newbies.

These are the vets instructions:
(He knows that I always do this, but he always reminds us.....just in case)

1. Make sure your feeding equipment is sterilized. (mine always is. I use the same sterilizer manufactured for baby feeding utensils/equipment).

2. Make sure the formula is the correct temperature for the bird's age (again, I always do this).

3. Make sure the baby bird is being kept in an environment where the ambient temperature is suitable for a bird of that age. (If it is too cold, this can cause Slow Crop)

4. Make sure his nest enclosure is clean & contains no material or substance that is toxic, can be ingested, or inhaled.

5. Pay attention to any deviation in behaviour (difficult with a new baby, especially if it is a species you are unfamilar with - hence my asking advice here).

6. Keep a record of the birds behaviour and habits. (I keep a bird diary for each of my birds, especially when they are babies. It helps to demonstrate to the vet hohw the problem/illness manifested & progressed. My vet might tease me about arriving with my notes, but has also said he finds them very informative & useful)

The first thing we did was go home and as per the vets give him about 2mls Ringers solution (Pedialyte). This is normal treatment after a crop-wash, especially since he might have been slightly dehydrated due to the Slow Crop.

This the medicine he has been prescribed, the dosage & what it is supposed to treat etc, as well as any alternative names for it (they can differ in in different countries).

Medication
Synulox/Augmentim (This containts Amoxycillin and clavulanic acid). It is a small pink table. It is an broad spectrum antibiotic used to treat a range bacterial infections in birds (such as respiratory infections). The prescribed dosage is 35mg/kg (175ml/ml). Therefore a bird weighing 50g would recieve a dosage of 0.01, a 100g bird would recieve a dosage of 0.02 etc.

Our little guy is on 1/2 a 50mg tablet twice a day.

Flagyle Suspension/metronidazole: This is used for dealing with aneorbic bacterial and protozoal infections. It can help get rid of giardia (which might explain our babies constant crying & the diarrhea/unusual smelling droppings) & trichomoniasis/canker (again, this might be the cause of the diarrhea or breathing problems). Our bird is on 0,0 5ml twice daily.

Fluconazole Suspension: This is used to treat yeast or fungal infections, like candida. Our little guy gets 4 drops a day.

To any new bird owners, if you think your baby has Slow Crop, get it to the vet ASAP. The long-term results are dehydration, starvation and death.

We are assuming that since I made sure that I had met all of those conditions, he had this condition when we got him, hence his initial lethargy & crying.

I am kicking myself that I did not take our little one to the baby at the first available chance, even after the intial bout of Slow Crop cleared up (because it is pervasive & can recur).

Hopefully, he will recover from this.

Thanks to all

(The vet was surprised when I mentioned the name of the petshop as it is usually very good. Then he got his grumpy face look. I think the petshop is in for a surprise).

 

[MikeyTN]

First of all, is it saw dust or shredded pine? Make that clear please! Saw dust is ground up like dirt in tiny particles. Shredded is like small pieces of sliced cheese.

Second, the wining is normal for a baby as they constantly want to be fed even if they are full!

Third, babies sleep a lot, they're growing!!!!

At that age, what behavioral problems does he have? Yes I read he's screaming, but that's pretty normal for baby to call their parents. And why would you say he's brain damaged? At anytime your unsure about the baby's health, you should really consult a avian vet. I've been raising birds for years but I'm not there to look at your bird in person to see what is going on. So you have to rely on your avian vet to give you a full examination to make sure he is healthy over all.

 

[Libs]

Hi MikeyTN

Thanks for your response. I will attempt to explain further.

I use the term sawdust here to refer to a mixture of shredded, paperlike pieces of wood (like large pieces of confetti) accompanied by fine dust and particulate.

I have also hand-raised lots of baby birds (domesticated & wild) so I am used to the normal range of baby bird behaviour in terms of yelling, sqawking, sleeping etc. However, this is my first experience with a baby conure of any type & I was wondering if anyone experienced the same type of behaviour or if I should make sure I was ready to run for medical help 1st thing in the morning. I am not sure if this anecdote will clarify why I felt the need to post here, but when I handreared my first baby mousebird I became concerned that after 3 months it still made no attempt to learn to fly. I tried everything, but the little brat just would not even flap his wings.

When I moved away from him he would haul himself after me crying pitifully. These were the pre-internet days, and before an experienced avian vet moved into the area.

My only source of knowledge came from the local bird expert at the wildlife enforcement agency. I became convinced that some deficiency in my birds diet had left him with weak legs &/or wings and rushed off to this bird expert (who had helped me in the past & also provided me with a huge list of diet sheets for different species of birds). He was vastly amused and told me that this particular species of birds was extremely opportunistic & attached themselves readily to human beings. They domesticated extremely easily, even as fully grown adults.

If they were being fed & could persuade someone to carry them, they did not bother to fly. In fact, wild mousebirds rarely bothered to fly & prefered to move from place to place by crawling along bushes....is why they are called 'mouse'birds.

I have had similar experiences with other 'new' species (my 1st ringneck was a learning curve on her own), but luckily all of these have happened since the advent of the internet.

The crying I was concerned about here was consistent, irrespective of whether the baby was in his box or being held. Even when he was going to sleep, he would doze for a few seconds & then wake-up and start to cry again. I was actually worried about him getting enough sleep. A few years ago I went to visit a friend who works with crack-addicted babies. This babies crying reminded me of how they sounded.

The strange behaviour that worried me when he was still at the petshop is difficult to describe in some ways because I have only ever seen it in older birds with severe behaviour disorders, like OCD, feather plucking, self-mutilation, anorexia.

This baby was engaging in very OCD behaviour, repetively rocking in a specific way and repetively moving the head & neck in twisty snake-like convulsions - amost rolling his head on his neck. This movement was unvaried & followed the same pattern constantly.

He would then start rocking (not head bobbying) repeatedly and then kept trying to climb the aviary glass in the far corner. At the same time as this he could continue moving his head the manner I described until he rolled onto his back. On the occasions he stopped, he either lay on his side with his eyes open & beak agape or he started fiddling with his feathers. He also was not actually plucking out his feathers, but tugging/pulling on them as opposed to grooming them. I honestly have never seen anything like this in a baby.


The issue of brain-damage did occur to me because sometimes I have cared for and worked with birds with varying degrees of brain-damage and some can exhibit both OCD and the other behaviour I described. I have looked after birds who developed a brain damage due to mechanical injury or as a result of some sort of toxic exposure to chemicals (like paint or heavy metal poisoning). A lot of them have exhibited very similar behaviour. Some of them also did scream constantly.

When made my first post it was in the early evening, so unfortunately I could not get to a vet. By the next day, things seemed to be fine (see my post before this) and continued that way until this morning. As soon as I saw his behaviour this morning, we rushed him straight to the vet.

Luckily, at least we have a diagnoses & he is on treament but I really appreciate your input.

BTW, can anyone tell me if this guy has normal colouration for a Jenday. I know my photo's are not that good, but his head does seem very orange?

 

[Thingamagigs]

A young baby definitely should not be under bright lights!!! That pet shop is clearly not experienced enough to have unweaned babies.
Babies stay in the nest, which is dark and nearly fully enclosed until they are fully feathered. Keeping them under constant light as a heat source is highly detrimental and downright cruel. I am in Australia so extra heating is rarely necessary, but when it was needed I used a heat pad outside of the box on one side with a thermostat to regulate the temperature. If the babies wished they could move from the warm side to the cool side.

Not having a video of the behaviour, its hard to make any judgement. A lot of what you are saying sounds like normal baby behaviour, especially if the bub is over stimulated. You have to remember that baby birds in the wild sit in their dark cosy tree hollow all day doing nothing but eating and growing Playing and cuddling with humans isn't natural. When I was handrearing bubs I didn't begin playing with and cuddling them until they were fully feathered and starting to obviously look at exploring their world. They then got switched from a box to flight cage with a couple of low perches and a box turned on its side.
My personal belief is playing and cuddling too early is unnatural and causes unnecessary stress As does introducing too much light too soon.

The swaying side to side sounds like an unhappy/distressed/sick/exceptionally hungry but weak baby. By your post I would probably point the finger at being over stimulated (probably checking on and interacting too often, common for a nervous new parront) But because they can also do it when they are sick I would take this bub to the avian vet.

Crying excessively is normal if he is getting too much attention and you are worrying over him too much (checking on him between feeds, there is too much light in his room/box/area or you play with him too often). Its also common for sick babies. So again, a vet visit is the best advice.
He is a very young bub and should be kept somewhere dark and quiet except for at feed time. If he can hear you, of course he will call to you Its instinct. If you feel you must cuddle or play, make sure the room is dark and quiet But it is best to leave him in a dark, quiet room alone for at least regular periods during the day.

 

[MikeyTN]

I'm gonna have to agree with Thingamagigs about over interaction and the swing side to side thing. I kept my interaction to a minimal except during feeding. IF they see me or hear me, they cry none stop. So I usually stay out of the room where they're at. I start spending a lot of time with them after weaning. IF they were to see me, they quit eating and beg instead. So from the moment they wean is when the flying lesson start and after accomplishing that is when I start the finger training. Lots and lots of handling daily until they go to their new homes.

Can you tell us what the vet determined what is wrong with the baby???

I've never dealt with mousebirds but I used to care for Robins, Mourning Doves, Mocking Birds, Wild Finches, etc. The moment they were ready to go, they fly off. That's been years ago....I don't do it now days because my partner won't allow another room with birds, especially wild birds....Plus for our birds' protection I opt not to do it anymore. Plus I've got plenty on my plate to do already....

 

[faeryphoebe1]

Libs, you and your hubby are Angels for saving that baby.

 

[Libs]

Unfortunately, the little guy died this morning. We are going to send his body off for a necroscopy.

The vet is as baffled as we are as he had siad the likelihood of recovery was very high. However, when I examined the stool sample this morning there was blood in them. There was obviously a problem that either we never picked up on or that progressed very rapidly. He was looking very good yesterday evening.

Just as a matter of reference though, we are certainly not new parronts & this is only the second baby bird that I have ever lost. The little guy was housed in a nice, comfy dark box, with the correct amount of heating (I also use a heating pad outside on one side of the box & a thermostat for temp regulating. We gave him the requisite amount of handling that I would normally give to a baby bird of that age (+/- 6 weeks). The swaying from side to side, head-weaving etc was how he was behaving in the petshop. Once we got him home it and into a more secure environment it stopped. It was the incessant crying that had us worried. I am fully aware of the dangers of overstimulation & the effect that this has on baby birds stress levels. Irrespective of where he was or we were doing he cried continuously, even when he was in his box in the dark.

I just hope the results of the necroscopy will give us some idea of what the problem was. Maybe, if this ever happens again we will be able to try something different & sooner. I will post the results when we get them.

The only upside at the moment is that the little plucked lovebird (L2) that we rescued from the same shop a few days before is recovering nicely. His bare patches are already covered in down with quills coming through & he is already starting to eat fresh food.


Thanks to everyone for their advice

Feeling very sad right now

 

[faeryphoebe1]

I'm so sorry. At least the little guy got cuddles and love from you that he would have never received otherwise.