finally, cracked the hormones!

^ This bird, she sure is something. she has figured out that almost everything makes a nest. over the last year she had laid 21 eggs. she was VERY creative in what she would turn into a nest and it became a mental challenge for us to find a way to stump her. she nearly won each and every time.

she cant have the following, because she had at one point, turned it into nest material:

sunflower seeds with shells (we buy shell-less now)
spray millet
cotton twine
rope perches
any plastic but super hard plastics--like acrylic
paper
any other natural perches aside from the debarked manzanita from the petstore.
cardboard
any fiber type of material that she could shred


only certain fabrics got away from her beak even lol she was very very clever in what she would turn into nest material.



however, we finally figured out the real trigger for the hormones, after this whole dang time.

her cage bottom.


before, it was a deep brown pan. it had a rim around it, about 5-6 inches high and she would constantly turn that into a nest.

well, we got rid of it, zip-tied her old grate to the bottom part of the cage for a secure closed bottom, and slid in a sheet of acrylic for the bottom.

now cage cleaning is a breeze, it's secure, aaannnnd! no more hormones!!! she's not presenting herself to us anymore, she's not huddling in her cage corners anymore, and so far, it's been 3 weeks of no hormonal signs since we've switched her over! this whole dang time, the trigger for her nestiness was the deep cage pan.


but, this is what we did with her cage:

this is the deep pan from before, you can see her sitting on the more recent egg (4 weeks ago, a week before we switched the cage bottom, she had bashed that egg in a little after we switched her over)




and then with the new acrylic bottom





it may not look all that fancy, but it works, it's secure, it's safe, and it's soooo easy to clean. slide it out, dump off loose seed into the garbage, then scrub it down in the bathtub and dry it off and slide it back in, takes like ten minutes

If there's a will, there's a way! It's rather new to her for the time being she will quit. Only time will tell if it's holds it up.

A new cage is one of my recommendations to try and get a hen out of being hormonal! (see below)


It's a shame it took so long to figure out the cause (that's a lot of eggs!!!), but hey, at least you got it figured out in the end! I hope this works for her and she doesn't find another trigger!

• Remove Eggs
  • Rearrange the cage
  • Move the cage to a new location
  • Use a cage grate
  • Get a new cage/Use a different cage
  • 12-14 hours of complete darkness
  • Decrease calcium and protein within the diet (if she is on a high calcium & protein diet prior to laying eggs)
  • Remove anything that could be taken as a nest
  • Remove anything that could be used as nesting material
  • Don't allow her in any dark place or enclosed area
  • IMPORTANT: save the eggs in the fridge
  • If she lays more than 3-4 eggs, put them back in the cage
  
  
• Leave the Eggs
  • Leave the eggs alone in the cage
  • [Optional] Replace with fake eggs (prevent eggs from breaking)
  • Increase calcium
  • Let hen sit on eggs for 3-4 weeks or until she gets bored of them
  • Once done sitting, toss

MonicaMc said:

A new cage is one of my recommendations to try and get a hen out of being hormonal! (see below)


It's a shame it took so long to figure out the cause (that's a lot of eggs!!!), but hey, at least you got it figured out in the end! I hope this works for her and she doesn't find another trigger!

• Remove Eggs
  • Rearrange the cage
  • Move the cage to a new location
  • Use a cage grate
  • Get a new cage/Use a different cage
  • 12-14 hours of complete darkness
  • Decrease calcium and protein within the diet (if she is on a high calcium & protein diet prior to laying eggs)
  • Remove anything that could be taken as a nest
  • Remove anything that could be used as nesting material
  • Don't allow her in any dark place or enclosed area
  • IMPORTANT: save the eggs in the fridge
  • If she lays more than 3-4 eggs, put them back in the cage
  
  
• Leave the Eggs
  • Leave the eggs alone in the cage
  • [Optional] Replace with fake eggs (prevent eggs from breaking)
  • Increase calcium
  • Let hen sit on eggs for 3-4 weeks or until she gets bored of them
  • Once done sitting, toss

Click to expand...

yep, we have done everything on this list and nothing stopped her lol in the end, the cage bottom removal is what is working... she used to be in a different cage, but switching her back to the minimal cage worked for a bit, until it got too hot to cover the cage at night, and then she was back to sitting in the cage bottom corner. we used blankets under her grate for cage liners, because she would still get the paper through the cage grate. we let her sit on the eggs, we removed anything we saw her using as a nest, anything she was using as material to make nests out of... lol we did it all. munch still laid. however, it has been 3 weeks now, and there is no hormones

she's on a 14 hour sleep schedule and has the solid acrylic bottom now, with no concealed corners

When people say "they've tried everything" - they really haven't! You on the other hand, well, I know for a fact that you've tried more than those people have! LOL Who would have thought it was the cage bottom? (when you've even tried more than one cage) She is one determined little girl! LOL

munch is incredibly smart and clever and the most determined creature i have ever met.

we have to use only certain food dishes with her, because she will nest inside of them if she can sit inside of them lol she will use seed hulls to make nests too. she is incredibly smart and its pretty impressive, but frustrating at the same time at times lol

when we went on vacation we had used a hard plastic mesh for the grate... yep, she chewed right through it in a matter of hours lol she is that determined!

we stopped using paper in her cage, we dont make toys out of cotton twine, we rearranged her cage all the time, we changed her cage, we moved her cage to a different spot in the room, she is just something else lol i've never met another bird like her.

a week after putting her in a new cage, she just laid eggs in it. nothing scares her either. she is fearless. she even sasses back to thunderstorms. she is not phased by anything.

and she has turned anything into a nest, no joke. if her perches are placed too low in her cage, she will sit under them and it becomes a nest. so, no perches, toys, or food dishes can be placed in the lower half of her cage.

she outsmarts us a lot, she is that clever. her cage door has to be a latching door, because she knows how to escape cages too. she is just so intelligent that it astounds us. my husband says shes trying to take over the world and the eggs are her plans to become her army of clones lol

she's even gone as far as turning her brocolli into nest material. she'll shred it into strips, tuck it, and throw it in her cage corner lol she is just insane with what she will use. anything she can get her beak on, she does.

she shreds natural perches too, even sycamore. so far only the manzanita perches, the dark smooth ones with no bark are the only ones she cannot chew.

you know those plastic animals? she's shredded one and turned that into a nest lol



this photo is when she was just over a year old, she pulled the paper out from under her grate





this is from when we went on vacation in may, she did that hole in 2 hours and squeezed herself in there. my mother in law was caring for the pets, she had checked on them just 2 hours before our train arrived at home and we came home to that, where before her cage was perfectly intact when they had checked on them and fed them. if you look next to the green thing (her foraging drawer, which she took the drawers out and flipped over) you can see her under the grate




a small start of a nest made from one of those plastic animals and some cotton twine




she is very determined lol

so, it's nice to see that the hormones have died down and i'm hoping it stays that way. because its normally this time of year she STARTS the process over again!


here's a funny story though.

she was chewing her old plastic dishes that hung on the side of the cage. i was worried she was going to ingest the plastic bits she chewed off. so we searched for some stainless steel dishes for her. we found some hamster stainless steel dishes, since we needed small ones that she couldnt nest inside. well, took her less than a day to figure out how to dump them lol so now we have to keep them clipped. she is way too smart for her own good!

She sure sounds like it!!! LOL


My only other thing I could possibly recommend is if increasing the amount of sleep she gets (i.e. up to 16 hours), then to decrease it! One breeder mentioned to someone as an off-handed like comment about doing 3 days of light. No darkness for the bird. I can't imagine that would be good for the hen, but also knowing Munch as much as I think I do, I don't think that would stop her for long! LOL

she is put to bed at 5 pm each night and wakes up at 6-7 am every morning. so, we are already doing the long nights.

when do you think we should decrease it?

i've heard of the 24 hour light method lol not sure that is a feasible option for us... we're in an apartment complex. i'm sure our neighbours may dislike a noisy lovebird in the middle of the night lol it wouldnt matter to us though. i dont sleep much as it is, and my husband works midnights, so it would not bother us in the least to do the 24 hour light... but the neighbours may not be happy lol so thats a no go

I'd recommend 8 hours of darkness before I'd recommend the 24 hrs of light, tbh!

You say it's been 3 weeks without any extra hormones? You could give it another week, then lesson the amount by 30 minutes for a week... next week, another 30 minutes.... just slowly changing the time?


But you will have to watch Munch and see if you are going in reverse or not.

When they're determined, there's nothing that will stop them from laying eggs. I've tried different methods as well. I cut the lighting hours from one determined hen and she just kept going regardless. I had to basically remove ALL toys from her cage and she was kept in solitary for a very very long time. Then I move her from cage to cage, one day she just stopped. I guess she got tired of moving from cage to cage, plus from room to room.

sounds like a plan! she's an unusual bird, so what works for others, may not work for her, so gotta try different things with her. the long nights alone works for our cockatiels lol they're simple to deal with for hormones. shredded cage papers? switched them to blankets and that was the end of it lol.

munch keeps us on our toes, and it's a mental challenge to outsmart her lol but, she wouldnt be munch if she wasnt difficult.

thanks for the advice, i'll be trying that out to see if it works at all

MikeyTN said:

When they're determined, there's nothing that will stop them from laying eggs. I've tried different methods as well. I cut the lighting hours from one determined hen and she just kept going regardless. I had to basically remove ALL toys from her cage and she was kept in solitary for a very very long time. Then I move her from cage to cage, one day she just stopped. I guess she got tired of moving from cage to cage, plus from room to room.

Click to expand...

yes, we had done that as well.

she is already kept solitary. she cannot see her brother mango, though she can hear him (cage is in the same room). i keep a blanket on the side of his cage because the moment she sees him she starts presenting herself to anything. toys, perches, us, him, etc. she gets interaction from us but none of the other birds because the moment she is with mango, she gets a little too naughty and we dont want to allow the hormones to grow out of control.

we had emptied her cage before to throw her off. giving her only a few perches and toys (compared to what she was used to). i felt like the worst owner in the world for doing it, and in the end, that didnt even work lol

attached is the photo of her emptied old cage.

that is one crazy determined bird!, I just love your Munch stories, and she is so beautiful.
It must be exasperating to deal with that constantly, good for you for finally figuring this out.
are you hoping to discourage her laying permanently?

crimson said:

that is one crazy determined bird!, I just love your Munch stories, and she is so beautiful.
It must be exasperating to deal with that constantly, good for you for finally figuring this out.
are you hoping to discourage her laying permanently?

Click to expand...

ideally, i'd love the eggs to stop for good, but that might be unrealistic, so my goal is to at least limit it to one or two clutches a year--which is a healthy amount, as far as laying goes...

the reason she lays so many is that she breaks them all and then lays more to replace them. she purposely lays them off perches i swear lol

the first time she laid, when she was a year old, she laid one egg. she ignored it, broke it and that was the end of it for that year.


then the next year, it was one after the other. she'd stop for a week and then start again. many of them she purposely breaks. i watched her actually treating them like toys, just rolling them around the bottom of the cage and smashing.


we boil the eggs, just to be safe because the only male lovebird we have is her brother. they have limited contact, but still.

And she knows the difference between fake eggs and real? lol

I probably would have pulled all my hair out having to deal with her and her egg laying! LOL

yeah she knows the difference between fake and real ones lol she chucks the fake ones out.


i know the signs of impending laying with her at least. she doesnt always show a full egg bum, but she does get more watery droppings, she starts going at the cuttlebone a lot more, she goes at her pellets a lot more, and she sits in corners. usually, that means, within a week there may be an egg from her. then i start hitting my head against the wall wondering why she likes to hurt her bum like this all the time. i mean, she doesnt even WANT to sit on them or anything, she just breaks them lol